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posted by Always On Watch @ 8/19/2005 12:19:00 AM
100 comments
100 Comments:
AOW, I linked up to this site and I put up a little post announcing it.
If I can help...just email me. I'll look into the blog roll and blog burst thing.
I just wanna say I think this is a great idea, and I wish you the best of luck with its success.
Sounds good to me - I'll check it out, thanks!
sounds like a bunch of blind rabid dogs finding a new reason to show prejiduce to me
any idiot can rip apart any religion
how about some things in the quran you may have not read ,
firstly
'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'
'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself'.
'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger.
'God does not judge according to your bodies and appearances but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds.'
how about some questions
Does Islam tolerate other beliefs?
The Quran says: God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just. [Qur'an, 60:8]
It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance toward other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city
What do Muslims think about Jesus?
Muslims respect and revere Jesus [pbuh], and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth [a chapter of the Qur'an is entitled 'Mary'], and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:
'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.' She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, "Be!" and it is.' [Qur'an, 3:42-47]
What does Islam say about war?
Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause.
The Qur'an says:
Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors. [2:190]
If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. [8:61
Freedom of conscience is laid down by the Qur'an itself:
'There is no compulsion in religion.' [2:256]
The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether a person is Muslim or not.
Racism is incomprehensible to Muslims,
for the Qur'an speaks of human equality in the following terms:
O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. [49:13]
that is the quran , that is islamic faith , not these so called muslim extremists you all quote from ,
should i call all catholics child molesters just because a high percentage of catholic priests molest children ?
i am not there yet but i am on my way to feeling the anti muslim brigade are becoming as nasty twisted evil warped and deranged as the terrorists they seem to think all muslims are
dont you remember , some guy tried to do this to the jews 60 years ago
your becoming fascists !
and you may forgive each other but GOD will not forgive you for your hatred
Hmmm...well if that is what the Quaran says, then why don't the true followers stand up against what these extremists are doing? If they are the majority then their silence speaks volumes.
I'm sure they extremists are basing their beliefs out of other Quran passages. So, it would be the beliefs and what they are based off of that I would oppose.
Toni,
About the Koran,excerpts from Irshad Manji in
http://www.time.com/time/archive
/printout/0,23657,1083918,00.html :
"...While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise. Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers, left behind a note asserting that 'it is enough for us to know that the Koran's verses are the words of the Creator of the Earth and all the planets.' Atta highlighted the Koran's description of heaven. In 2004 the executioners of Nick Berg, an American contractor in Iraq, alluded on tape to a different Koranic passage: 'Whoever kills a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind.' The spirit of that verse forbids aggressive warfare, but the clause beginning with except is readily deployed by militant Muslims as a loophole. If you want murder and villainy in the land, they say, look no further than U.S. bootprints in Arab soil....
"For too long, we Muslims have been sticking fingers in our ears and chanting 'Islam means peace' to drown out the negative noise from our holy book. Far better to own up to it. Not erase or revise, just recognize it and thereby join moderate Jews and Christians in confessing 'sins of Scripture,' as an American bishop says about the Bible. In doing so, Muslims would show a thoughtful side that builds trust with the wider communities of the West....
"Still, as long as Muslims live in pretense, we will be affirming that we have something to hide. It's not enough for us to protest that radicals are exploiting Islam as a sword. Of course they are. Now, moderate Muslims must stop exploiting Islam as a shield--one that protects us from authentic introspection and our neighbors from genuine understanding."
Notice that Irshad Manji refers to Islam, not to Islamism. That sounds significant to me.
As to tolerance on the part of Muslims, at least certain ones, from
And from
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
d_history_dhimmitude.php :
"Dhimmitude can only be understood in the context of jihad, because it originates from this ideology. Infidels who submit without fighting to the Islamic armies, are granted a pledge of security. They are protected from the jihad laws against infidels which command killing, slavery, ransom or deportation for the enemies. Peace and security for non-Muslims are recognised only after their submission. Protection status is provided through the Islamization of conquered lands.
Rules of dhimmitude
"The vanquished non-Muslims peoples are granted security for their life and possessions, as well as a relative self-autonomous administration and limited religious rights according to the modalities of the conquest. These rights are subject to two conditions: the payment of a poll tax (the jizya) and submission to the provisions of Islamic law.
"The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis.
"Jews and Christians are referred to as the People of the Book, they share the same legal status, while other religious group - like the Zoroastrians for instance - were more despised and treated harsher.
"Dhimmitude covers more than a millennium of Christian and Jewish history, as well as of other groups. It is a comprehensive civilization encompassing customs, legislation, social behavior. Numerous laws were enacted over the centuries by the Muslim authorities, to implement its principles. It was abolished during the 19th -20th centuries under European pressure and colonization of Arab countries.
"Today the resurgence of traditional Islam revitalizes the spirit of jihad against the dar al-harb and of dhimmitude for the non-Muslim minorities."
One form of dhimmitude is refusing to look reality in the face.
Oh, and I forgot to tack this onto the Irsad Manji info, and the following are my words:
Of late, a few voices have been added to the above. Not enough voices, though--at least in my opinion.
Islamofascism is the problem. Denying the existence of that ideology is a fatal mistake. The basis for Islamofascism is found in the Medinan verses (militant), which supercede the Meccan verses (peaceful). At Medina, MTP ordered the slaughter of Jews who refused to convert.
pastouris
you make many a fine point and a few i disagree with , the words many muslims are good people is what is missing here , it is NOT the faith that is at fault but some of the idiots that think they are being muslim
the message that this is not about a whole faith of people is my point , i do not defend the terrorists , i do defend the faith (and it is not mine)
as for my knowledge , well it spans 4 decades of study and lecture within the realms of the middle east and terrorism , i unlike the book list on this site have read BOTH sides of the argument and i feel i can defend neither
do you think that because we kill murder and maim using guns and tanks and planes instead of explosives then we are better then them
i have spent over 2 decades in war ravaged parts of the world , i have seen what a US bomb has done when it landed on a school and it was no accident , (if you doubt me i will supply more)
the US forces have directly and indirectly created the deaths of over 25,000 people since 2001 thats women and children and ederly , now you tell me what terrorist or muslim has murdered as many as that ?
we bugger people with eletrical lights , we set dogs on them , we force them to masterbate in front of us and film it , we keep 20 to 30 children under the age of 40 at gitmo , we ignore the geneva convention , we murder of 700 women and children at fallujah , we use depleted urannuim , creating cancer in iraqi children
and we are the good guys ! get a grip , we are as sick in the head as them
history (and i mean REAL history) not the christian book of world as we saw it , also is full of evil and twisted acts , i defend none , but it seems you defend one above the other
as for wanting all jews out of israel , no way , i am not getting in that camp . dont you think i would be an idiot to defend one without the other
israel should have peace and security and its own jewish state
as per the pre 1967 agrement ,
israel should also stop training the kurds to fight the sunni and shia , MOSSAD has no place in iraq and iraq has no place in israel
but all this just repeats my point , you defend one and attack the other when they are the same
be brave , condem BOTH ,
for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok
do tell me ?
always on watch
one sign of true faith is to look a fascist in the face and call him on it
that is what i am doing
you have become what you hate , you are Teaching hatred and god will call you on it , trust me
correction -- thats 20-30 children under the age of 14 at gitmo , not forty !!!!!!
Toni wrote;
"'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'"
If this is true then God will have no mercy on teh terrorists will he? But they certainly don't seem to believe that verse now do they?
And Toni wrote;
"'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself'"
This is EXACTLY why they behave the way they do....these guys REALLY want EVERYONE to act as they do and believe as they do.
Toni continues her her insanity with;
"'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger"
Certainly this is NOT one of the sura's that is being followed.
I could go on and rip apart the rest of your rambling non-sense, but I don't need to take the time. I have shown you for the simpleton that you are and now leave you in the very capable hands of the 2005 All-American Championship Moonbat Roasting Team.
Kids? Start your grills!!!!
Toni,
You have called me "on it," and that's your right in a free society. It is also my right to speak what I've observed and what I've learned.
What I feel you are doing is tossing out an accusation because you resist hearing anything negative about Islamism. I am not teaching hatred--Islam(ism) does that.
Maybe I misread one of your earlier comments. I thought you said that you are not religious. How is it, then, that you have decided that "god will call you on it , trust me"?
God knows my heart. I'll trust Him to do the judging.
Kender
i hope and pray god has no mercy on the terrorists either yes .. have you REALLY read all i have wrote and think i am defended terrorists ??
really ??
try reading again , i am defending the muslim faith , NOT some idiot who thinks the quran tells him to go murder people ,. tch
and
alwaysonwatch
let me clarify , i belong to no faith , i have read the major religous texts of all the main faiths but belong to none ,
I do believe in "GOD" i do not believe in orginised relgion which on ALL sides has created as much death and suffering since time began as you can imagine
as for your trust in god , again thats what the terrorist think too , ironic eh , they think they are going to meet a bunch of young boys and virgins ,, hahahaha yea right
the quran forbids them to do what they do , and the bible forbids you from what you do
hahaha . kender , they say self praise is no recomendation , but you giggle off to your world believing you have brought anything to this debate that you wish , as alwasyonwatch says , that is your right
anyone up for answering ym question yet , any takers anywhere
let me repeat it
for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok
do tell me ?
still waiting
Toni,
My trust in God doesn't involve flying planes into buidings, so I don't go along with some of what you said about your interpretation of my faith. Furthermore, I most certainly believe in the rule of civil law. Your faith beliefs are your own, and that's your right.
And you're wrong about the Bible's forbidding the exposure of deception. I repeat, I am not advocating violence. I am advocating a form of self-defense: being informed. Sort of like that "war of ideas" we're always hearing about.
The Koran does not forbid what Islamists do. We've already discussed that issue, I believe.
And, yes, many wars have been fought in the name of religion--any religion you want to name. I am not excusing those wars (though there are some misunderstandings about some of the details regarding the Crusades). My desire is to expose the ideology behind the war which Islamism is now waging on the entire world, one which the jihadists declared by using verses from the Koran.
As to military issues, sometimes terrible strikes happen. Sometimes innocent civilians die. These things happen in every war, and are worse now, thanks to modern weaponry. I don't mean to minimize the horror--so please don't take what I just said in the wrong way. War is not something I relish, in any way.
The 9/11 attacks, however, were not misstrikes. I respect that you do not condone what happened on that day; I'm just mentioning it here.
I remain convinced that it's very important to expose the ideology which led to those attacks. That same ideology is still used to train more young jihadists.
-Signing off for a while now-
Toni, would you mind placing thsi question into a structure I can understand? I can read it three different ways as it is written. (hint; PUNCTUATION)
Here is what I would like you to fix, "for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok"
I want to know what makes a house intense.
And don't bombs explode? I believe it is fire that melts fat...and if you are lying around in a fire then you are most likely dead.....so what is your point?
AOW, I will get back here soon, looks like the pet project may be off the ground eh?
They never have one, Kender. Not one that makes any sense, anyway.
Thanks for letting me know about this; I posted on it.
I find what Toni says amusing. She obviously didn't hear the text of the Nick Berg videotape. They quote the Qu'ran throughout. It was a call to the ummah (the muslim believers) to stop talking and pick up the sword against the infidel. Nick didn't die because he was an American, the tape said, he died because he was not a muslim.
It's terrorists who surround themselves with women and children as they're walking through the streets, sometimes across from American soldiers-- making it difficult for them to be targets because they know the American soldiers won't aim at them with a child as a shield.
Members of the Fadayeen Saddam did that in the beginning of the war. But now it's foreign fighters -not even Iraqis that we're facing in Iraq. Members of Al Qaeda--who would like to see a Taliban-type regime move into the vacuum that's been created by the removal of the Ba'athists.
Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments, but they're pretty lame.
I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran. Interesting dichotomy when most of the time they're complaining about "equal rights" here in the US.
But leftists don't make sense, I gave up trying to make sense of their arguments a long time ago. It was quite a surprise to me that Toni showed up here in comments, AOW, you should feel privileged that your new project was baptised by such a worthy adversary.
You could have wound up with some guy like "nitpicker".
alwaysonwatch
"My trust in God doesn't involve flying planes into buidings, so I don't go along with some of what you said about your interpretation of my faith"
i see how about flying missiles into buildings is that ok , how about increasing childhood cancer by 1200% in iraq by using depleted uranium with a hlaf live of 40,000 years , how about forcing muslims to masterbate , how about the murder of the entire town of fallujah long after the insurgents have left is that ok ?
you see , i am NOT defending the evil that decided to fly into a building , but it seems you are defending the response , they are too different arguments , defend yours ?
(i note someone has mentioned below that the US does not target civilians ... and i promise i will reply to that when i reply to that person but i have a lot of replys so i will answer each one in turn to be fair)
"And you're wrong about the Bible's forbidding the exposure of deception. I repeat, I am not advocating violence. I am advocating a form of self-defense"
and what exactly have the the iraqi PEOPLE done to you ? do you justify the US action or not
have you ever been in a war zone , i often have to work in them , it is nice and clean on TV , real life means women children get killed , for nothing , are you defending this or not ?
"You say they do not hate me. The Islamic terrorists and those that support them hate me (read this sentence carefully). They hate my way of life. They hate my freedom. And as you rightly point out they hate our policies. Do you disagree with what I just said?"
they do not hate your way of life , in many surveys i have seen is islamic countries including iraq,syria,iran etc a large number of muslims are fighting for democracy , they often look upto the people of the US it is the foreign policy that gets them so worked up
one of the biggest shocks in history to me and many others is how the largest coalition ever formed on earth after 9/11 imploded after the Neocon concept to go on to iraq , stunning failure in policy that is beyond belief
did i read carfully enough ?
"I am not excusing those wars "
thank god for that , there is hope , it seems for your replies that we do no wrong and that the muslim faith is pure evil , a bit of retrospect is good , i salute you
"As to military issues, sometimes terrible strikes happen. Sometimes innocent civilians die. These things happen in every war, and are worse now, thanks to modern weaponry. I don't mean to minimize the horror--so please don't take what I just said in the wrong way. War is not something I relish, in any way."
a semi acceptable response , yes wars are horrible things infact very nasty indeed , and i am no pacifist , there are times when a nation needs to fight of course . BUT this war is wrong ,
what gives george bush the right to say "we are fighting them there so we dont have to fight them at home"
what makes a US life worth more in the eyes of god then an iraqi one ?
25,000 non combat civilians have died , yes the insurgents have killed many of those but there were NO insurgents or bombs before
why are they dying ?
i have worked with american forces in two capacitys , one with the regular force and two with special forces
there is a huge difference between them . US special forces are the best or if not near as damn it the best in the world , they are highly trained , highly skilled and a pleasure to be near
an example of my time in Baghdad when near the more usual US soldier
9th march 2004 , an old man (about 75 years old) walks out onto the roof of his flat to hang out some washing , he has no weapon , just towels and sheets etc
a US soldier spots him in the corner of his eye and shouts "SNIPER" at which point around 8 US servicemen hit the ground and aim there rifles at the man
fortune struck and a British TV reporter was near by , he shouted to the US forces "if you shoot that man i will personally hold you responsible for murder ...."
at which point the US forces stood down
if the reporter had not been there , the man would have been dead
we train US forces ( apart from special forces)under a different technique then most other countries
self preservation is the ultimate key , you can not be prosecuted for war crimes regardless or what you do , so they do not show the restraint that many countries do ,
when 700 people are killed in fallujah and not one of them is am insurgent or terrorist , they just couldnt leave as the bomb fell (i have seen the bodies) do you call that an accident or a massacre ?
"I remain convinced that it's very important to expose the ideology which led to those attacks. That same ideology is still used to train more young jihadists."
to a degree i actually agree , but to blame an entire faith is my issue , blame the warped ones by all means , but say that , dont say "all muslims"
and also yes we need to examine the ideology but we also need to examine ours
do you think they just woke up one day and thought right . lets bomb the west ?
or do you think they see that bad things have happened to them too
on some things they are wrong of course , on others we have been wrong
exampe .. encouraging the shia to rise up agaisnt saddam in 1991 then doing nothing to help them when they all got murdered , they dont forget tha kind of thing
next up kender....
kender
"Toni, would you mind placing thsi question into a structure I can understand? I can read it three different ways as it is written. (hint; PUNCTUATION)"
kender hint ; I HAVE DYSLEXIA , dont worry it doesnt effect my mind just the appearence but feel free to ask me to clarify anything , you know it seems i am responding to each and every point being made , i wonder if anyone would care to actually respond to the many many points that i have made and you all seem to ignore
Here is what I would like you to fix, "for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok"
I want to know what makes a house intense.
simple , try sitting in the house as the bombs are falling , you dont need to ask a nasty muslim you could try just asking londonders
btw you could also try to be less pedantic and add a little more substance
And don't bombs explode? I believe it is fire that melts fat...and if you are lying around in a fire then you are most likely dead.....so what is your point?
what a stupid point ! , so when the planes hit the towers then all the people on board would have been dead .. so what you upset about ... how odd
i am sure now that you have never seen such a sight , an armchair critic maybe ?
next up .. gindy .....
ooohh......I can't wait......hey Toni, did you hear about this quote?
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran...should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
It was said by Omar M. Ahmad, Chairman of CAIR, to a crowd of muslims on California in July of 1998.
What say you now Moonbat?
Toni,
I will respond to your response to me. I have not read the rest of the thread. I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?
Are you having trouble seeing things you don't want to see?
Islamofascism reigns supreme in several Muslim countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. It has made major inroads in countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Niger, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, etc. It is not uncommon to have heads of depts. at Al-Azhar University accuse "Jews" of masterminding 9/11. It is not uncommon for state-controlled media in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt to broadcast these kinds of conspiracy theories, along with calls for "death to the Jews" and also Blood Libels against Jews.
Are you familiar with this?
Neither America nor Israel do anything in league with that kind of hatred. Our societies are most definately morally superior to those societies.
Therefore, I want us to win the War. I do not want our world to be like theirs. I want their world to be more like ours. I hope they can establish democracy and a human rights based constitution, and retain their culture. I hope that they can purge the Islamofascists from their socities.
Are you aware that a poll was done recently which showed that fully 99% of Lebanese people don't like Jews?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/100-of-lebanese-say-they-have-very.html
Or, that 24% of British Muslims "feel sympathy" for the motives of the terrorists?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslims-can-expect-increasing-distrust_25.html
That Mein Kampf is a bestseller in Turkey?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/two-top-turkish-bestsellers-mein-kampf.html
The pproblem of Islamofascism is not a small problem. It is very widespread, unfortunately.
Toni,
You asked the question:
"for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok ?"
In war, such things happen. The term "acceptable" is an odd choice of words. The question is, was it preferable to drop a bomb on that house? Was Hitler in the house? Was there intelligence that led the Army to believe that something was going on in the house which could endanger the lives of many people?
Was the goal to kill innocent children?
I don't know what specific incident you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure the American military didn't say to themselves, "Let's go bomb a house full of children."
I'm guessing you witnessed this, and it seems to have caused you a great deal of distress. For that, I wouldn't blame you. That would be a horrific thing to witness.
My father witnessed such things in WWII, and he would not have said that WWII was not worth fighting.
Are you a Pacifist?
Toni,
You asked the question:
"for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok ?"
In war, such things happen. The term "acceptable" is an odd choice of words. The question is, was it preferable to drop a bomb on that house? Was Hitler in the house? Was there intelligence that led the Army to believe that something was going on in the house which could endanger the lives of many people?
Was the goal to kill innocent children?
I don't know what specific incident you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure the American military didn't say to themselves, "Let's go bomb a house full of children."
I'm guessing you witnessed this, and it seems to have caused you a great deal of distress. For that, I wouldn't blame you. That would be a horrific thing to witness.
My father witnessed such things in WWII, and he would not have said that WWII was not worth fighting.
Are you a Pacifist?
Always on Watch,
I don't think any wars have been fought in the name of Taoism.
:)
Toni is worse than a pacifist...she is an appeasing coward without strength of conviction and is seriously lacking in comprehensive skills.....she can see no farther than her emotions, and has very little grasp on reality and seems to fail in realizing that life isn't fair.
In fact life is sometimes simply completely unfair, and bad things happen to good people......take the folks in America that are in and of the Right.....is it fair that we are saddled with an opposition party that is, at heart, a bunch of cowardly socialists that would sell off our sovereignty to appease our whiny enemies and their guilty conscience?
No.
Do we deal with it?
Damn straight we do.
We spread the truth every damned day to stop them from creating a country that will be a hollow shell of herself.
Fuck the people on the DUmbass side of the street.
May they all move to france.
gindy
"Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?"
we can all pick and choose , does the true jewish faith support the cold blooded murder of a four year old palastinan boy hiding behind is father in cold blood live on TV
what you want to play .. example tennis . i already accept that both sides are wrong , i dont defend palastinians when they rip apart jews limb from limb for being in the wrong side of town
you are making the obvious mistake
you seem to think that because i dont support you , i must be agaisnt you , i dont support them either , but one of us can see two evils and the other can only see one .. can you guess who is who ?
"So says the man who claims to be tolerant. Which hatred are you talking about? Is just pointing out facts considered hatred in your mind? Point to the specific hateful sentence"
this article links to a site that highlights the evil and twisted things that some 'muslims' have said , it does not point to christian evil it does not point to american evil , it does not point to any positive and fair balance , it implies that the whole religion of islam is aka terrorist/evil
again how hard you search to make your point balanced depends on how valid you feel the oposition is
why not just do the demcorat and republican crap and call each other "trolls" .
"and if you are christian then your views would disgust me
I am not. You are disgusted very easily."
it depends on how clearly you understand what disgusts me , if you dont obtain your facts from a wide enough circle it is likely your views are just ignorant and niave rather then disgusting
"you say they do not hate me. The Islamic terrorists and those that support them hate me (read this sentence carefully). They hate my way of life. They hate my freedom. And as you rightly point out they hate our policies. Do you disagree with what I just said?"
islamic terrorists are not what i am talking about , it is islamic people , they are not the same but on islamic terrorists i have not heard them say (at this point) that they hate you freedom , they just want us to get out of theres
but they may well say that , i dont know , my defence is of muslims not 'terrorists'
"And I promise you you are wrong. I have grown up with these people and still know some to this day. Although it is true they are almost gone. When they are I fear what you will change the story about what they went through. And I sure you they would not consider me a fascists for expessing facts or utilizing free speech. In fact, it is fascists that try to mute free speech. Is that what you are doing by throwing out the PC names"
you imply i make such statements without authority , you are wrong ,i still know many that are still alive and i am yet to hear your point expressed
"you see me as no better as than the Nazis than I have to suggest you open up a history book and read about what the Nazis did. Apparently you don't know which is a shame since you are using the word very easily."
i have , infact i would ask you to do the same , read 1933-1939
it is funny but the rhetoric is the same
"Again, you have to point out the example of hatred. You use this word and fascist for anyone who disagrees with you like a weapon. It seems that you are using them to trying and silence others"
sorry but i use the word fascist as defined in most dictionaries , being at the far right end of the political field
a 'simple' scale would lead from communism on the left to fascism on the right , but i accept this is simplified
i will reply to duncan next , but duncan to be fair to you i dont have enough time to give your reply a respectfull response , so i am going to stop replying for a little while
i promise i will reply to each point made by each person who states their opinion , please between you be respectful enough to show me the same level of factual response
i will return starting from duncan as soon as i can
Toni, since you see "two sides of evil", which one would you prefer prevail? The islamic side, which will subjugate you, or the American side, which will give you the freedom to try to change what you don't like?
The islamic side? Which says you can be beaten if your husband "fears" highhandedness?
Or the American side, in which even a simple accusation by you can get a man hauled off to jail?
The islamic side, which says you MUST go to Mosque?
Or the American side, which coudln't care less what you believe as long as you are peaceful?
I could go on and on with these, but I am sure you get my point.
boy i have read the rest of the responses , am i going to have fun
just one correction so far from me i feel i should be repectfull enough to state
anyone so far who has seperated the majority of the worlds peacefull and tollerant muslims from the small (but growing) band of so called islamic terrorists and i have said different i am sorry , there are two types of respondent it seems ,
those that actually are not that far from my view , and those that are a million miles from me
incase this becomes stupid (as if it isnt already) let me clarify clearly my point
I am defending the faith of islam , i am not defending terrorists muslim or not , i feel that it is wrong to put ALL or MOST muslims into a pidgeon hole in this way
as far as those that do go round blowing themseleves up , they will get no defence from me
but to wage near constant attacks at a whole faith of people based on the actions of a minority is twisted
any black people here ?
if so . do you blame EVERY white american for slavery ?
any women ?
if so do you think ALL or MOST men are evil because 99% of murders are commited by men
if anyone answers yes to those two points then your probably in the right place
anyway like i say. i will return to duncans reply as soon as i can
Toni,
Reputations are born of actions. If Muslims wish other people to think better of them, they must first ACT better.
Ever since the inception of Islam, under the guidance of its Warrior Chief Mohammad, it has treated others very poorly indeed.
Perhaps you might want to look at the quotes from Muslim sources on the new site, "The Truth Project." Along with the actions we see daily that are sanctioned by Islam as "religious obligations," the quotes, many of which are from Islam's canonical documents, might help you understand why Islam has such a really bad reputation.
I continue to be astonished at the ignorance so many Muslims have of their own history and philosophy.
And I am attacking the fact that you can't seem to grasp that the muslim holy book, the koran, tells them to act this way....the reason that the vast majority of "moderate" muslims do NOT stand vocally against terrorists (remember, Al Jazeera does NOT condemn terrorism), is because they either believe this way or, more likely, (and this has happened), becuase they are scared for their lives also.
CAIR, in at least two cases (Hisham Kabbani and Khalid Duran), has defamed moderate muslims that rejected their extremists stance, and that led to death threats against them.
Apparently you, Toni, cannot see that islam is a danger, and the "moderates" won't stand with us against the terrorists.
There is no more middle road here, you either stand against terrorism and in defense of Freedom or by default you stand against Freedom, for the terrorists will not differentiate between an infidel that fought against them and one that claimed neutrality.
Think about that as you ponder how nice it is to have your head connected to the rest of you.
hehehe like lambs they flock , wait your turn please
and if you feel your point has been raised by someone else wait for me to answer them maybe ?
i said that in time i will reply to each and every point but i am not going to bother repeating myself over and over
may i suggest if you are reading this and you havent bothered to read the reams and reams above then you will not be helping your case , try catching up first
off to work now so i will reply as stated 3 times to duncan within 24 hours if possible and continue from there
but so far there are about 30 of you and one of me , so please show enough respect not to repeat the same as your friends above
Mr Beamish has spoken.
'nuff said.
Response, Part I
I do not see the Truth Project as a hate-campaign against Islam. I am very much confused where “Toni” is getting this from. I also do not see TTP as being intolerant, but rather an attempt to inform those few Americans (or others) who have a modicum of interest in learning more about the dangers of Islamofascism. My concern is that even before “Toni” has taken the time to read through the material offered “for information,” s/he has already formed a conclusion about the worthiness of the material offered.
If “Toni” is a scholar (with several decades of study of the world’s religions), why does she come across as being in favor of one, and not any others? I guess my point is that if Toni would someday like to grow up and become a social scientist, with emphasis on the scientist part, then she is going to have to learn how to conduct extensive research, develop hypotheses, and create protocols to attempt to prove her various hypotheses. And of course, this would appear to be a life-long study in and of it self. Meanwhile, the enemy is at the gate and most Americans know very little about the enemy.
Islam is not the enemy of America. I don’t recall anyone but Islamofascists themselves having declared “holy war.” At the same time, I think that AOW and others have made a germane point in this tome: (1) Why has it taken so long for the so-called “moderate” Muslims to speak out against terrorism? (2) Given the Qu’ran’s permission for Muslims to lie in words so long as they are true to the faith in deeds, is it natural for non-Muslims not to trust anything that Muslims say?
Response, Part II:
Now as to the devastation created by any conflict, it may be time for “Toni” to step back from this issue — as it appears that s/he is much too emotional, sans ranting about babies in incinerated houses. I can personally certify that Jcrue is correct when he affirms that the United States military does not target civilians; but accidents do happen. Everyday in the United States, people die terrible deaths in automobile accidents, and we should be equally appalled by those statistics. But it is time for “Toni” to understand that most of the death and destruction wrought upon Iraqis is at the hands of terrorists from the countries s/he listed: Jordon, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
I do agree with “Toni” on one point, however. Fundamentalism is a bad thing, no matter who it is that engages in it: Christians, Hindus, or Muslims. I am as much disgusted when Christian Protestants blow up Christian Catholics as when radical Muslims kill other Muslims. I cannot help but think that God is pretty well disgusted with all of us in this regard. From my perspective, I don’t care that these terrorists are Muslims; I only care that they seek to harm my country, and my countrymen. In our own defense, we the people have a right to seek out those people and destroy them. I wish that I could offer “Toni” a perfect world — and this perhaps is where s/he and I are most dissimilar. I am a realist.
Mustang: noun;
A species of wild horse found in the American Southwest;
An automobile built by Ford Motor cars for the last 40 years;
A blogger of some reknown who is highly skilled in shredding non-sensical arguments and pointing out the truth of a situation.
Word are words ... actions, however, are important. Actions in the here & now.
Quoting Koranic scripture can support either side, it is how the people are currently interpreting it (and even moreso) how they are acting (whether in accordance with, or in opposition to, their holy book).
Has the US govt screwed up how we handled the MidEast? Was there even a way to do it "right"?
We could sit here and argue those all day long ... the important thing is how we react to how things are now.
I happen to think the US is starting to finally do it right; atleast WRT Afghanistan and Iraq.
We still need to work on some internal things and I think Israel's disengagement is (to be polite) being handled all wrong. And we need to continue spreading the truth about CAIR (and the ACLU).
/TJ
All Commenters:
Well, it's going to take some time for me to read through all this. I'm not wimping out, I assure you. But I do have a life outside the blogosphere.
You are certainly welcome to continue the discussion, and I'll be back as my schedule allows.
A productive discussion is only possible if one actually weighs the evidence, looks at the magnitude, and seeks some sense of proportion. This isn’t possible if one abstracts isolated counter examples without references to the centrality of the situation. If Toni is willing to write-off the terrorism against Israelis by picking a single example of a boy who was shot next to his father, look what was evaded:
- terrorism against Israeli civilians is deliberate, planned, and a central part of jihadist methodology
- it happens on a daily basis at its height and would be as frequent if it weren’t for the extreme measures take by Israel
- it is taught in Arab media, schools, and approved by the general population
- it is sanctioned by religious leaders with plausible basis in Islam
If we compare that with the single action (which has now been disproven but let’s assume it wasn’t) then we see how rare and out of character it is for Israelis.
Thus, magnitude, centrality, frequency, deliberateness, character, philosophy, culture – are all ignored by those that isolate and abstract single counter-examples from their context.
At this point, no debate in good faith is possible.
Toni,
we trained al-qaeda and supllied them with stinger missiles
False.
we trained saddam and in 1988 got the US company bechtel to build him a lovely dual use chemical factory , funny thats after he gased his own people , we didnt seem to mind then
False. He may have converted it but we gave it to him to make pharmaceuticals... you know.... for asprin. You can't just throw out hyperbolic accusations and not link to some proof.
please between you be respectful enough to show me the same level of factual response
Oh? Then I guess I can tell you that this is happening because the world is flat. Um, no. Or did you mean I could use facts like you do but, like you, they don't have to be true and accurate facts?
"Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?"
we can all pick and choose , does the true jewish faith support the cold blooded murder of a four year old palastinan boy hiding behind is father in cold blood live on TV
Are you talking about Mohammed al-Dura who was actually used for a photo op and instead killed by Palestinian crossfire blamed on Israel? Or another kid? And let's not forget their love of Palestinian street theater. If the one you're talking about was indeed killed by an Israeli, I am sure it was a mistake because Israelis don't TARGET children, unlike the Palestinian terrorists.
And that's just a few of your blazing fallacies. You want us to believe what you say, you should provide proof.
Here is the most important point to me... might have been covered about 100 comments ago, but Toni, I propose this... Islam may be interpreted in a peaceful or violent way.
However, currently the vast majority are allowing the minority to use it for violence with nothing but lip service in preaching peace.
To that effect, who cares if we, the Soviets, or Jesus Himself supplied them with training and supplies.... they have started attacking us, which makes them OUR (read: all of us) problem. Thus they either quit attack us and our interests, or we will continue to consider it war... a war on every level.
OK?
AOW, it looks like you're off to a good start.
I'll add the link, soonest.
Perhaps a doctor could help Toni with her neurosis but I doubt that anyone could change her mind with rhetoric. To a neurotic, facts are just unhandy events to be ignored or denied.
Wow.....simply wow....and you know what? The ratio of commenters here of those that understand that currently islam is a dnager vs., oh, I don't know, Toni, as an example, are, I believe, the true ratio of people that understand why we are at war vs those gimps that whine loudly........put in a short blurb, I don't believe the media's numbers of "a majority" being against the war....soemday I will be able to meet some of these fools that don't understand that one must counter violence with violence and get the chance to smack them in the head......then let us see if they hold true to their beliefs!!!
kender, you think so? Go to my blog, click the link to the right labeled "Daily Dissent". They are a left winger blog site. It will absolutely spook you how clueless some of our fellow citizens are.
P.S. I would just put the link to that site, but last time I messed it up and AOW made fun of me.....
;p
I'm going to have to come back and finish reading the comments later, this is getting interesting. I wanted to let you know that I have posted my Question Of The week. I hope you will stop by to answer it.
God Bless America, God Save The Republic
http://middle-east-info.org/
an introductory video and library of links to audio/video clips covering the history of the middle east in a nutshell.
right guess what , toni is back :-)
and first up is duncan....
duncan said "The United States Military does not target civilians. Let me repeat that. They DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS!"
ok duncan lets look at that , if a train driver was given amphetimins by his bosses to "improve his performance" and he crashed the train killing hundreds of people , would that be an accident ?
US pilots are given amphetimins to enable them to stay alert (or paranoid) for longer .
700 civilians were killed in fallujah , insurgents killed during the same battle was 16
depleted uranium will still be a factor in the deaths in the middle east for 20,000 years at least
when the US attacks a target they accept that there will be civilians murdered by the action , innocents will die . please dont fob me off with that colatoral damage crap , that is insulting my inteligence , it is murder , the deaths are calculated into the attack and planned for ,
so let me repeat THE US DOES TARGET CIVILIANS , WE PLAN FOR IT , INFACT WE HAVE ALREADY KILLED MANY MANY MORE INNOCENT IRAQI'S THEN DIED IN THE TRAGEDY OF SEPT 11TH MANY MANY TIMES OVER
so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing
Duncan said "Through the use of smart bombs and GPS targeting, are weapons are sophisticated enough to minimize the amount of collateral damage that may occur. Gone are the days of high altitude "precision" bombing where entire cities"
ok duncan , it seems you have been watching to much TV there , let me give you some FACTS ( funny , many people further down complain of my lack of facts , of which i have supplied many , but the facts coming back seem to be somewhat lacing in any actual information )
anyway some facts (you doubt my facts then you can check them for yourself)
you claim that wars are getting nice clean things , some stats
the 1991 gulf war (deaths)
many of the numbers are of couse estimated (we dont do body counts)
us/western military = 250
local allies =hundreds
enemy military = 50,000
civilians (direct = a few thousand
civilains (indirect)= 100,000 +
Kosovo
US/western = 0
local allies =hundreds
enemy military =1000
civilians (direct) =12,500
civilians (indirect)= 1000 +
Afghanistan
us/western = 70
local allies = few thousand
enemy military = 3600
civilians (direct) = 10,000 +
civilians (indirect) = 3200
Iraq war 2003
us/western =2000
local allies = a few thousand
enemmy military = 10,000
civilians(direct) = at least 10,000
civilians indirect=at least 120,000
all these wars happened to be against muslims and so far in our little ACCIDENTS we have killed over a QUARTER OF MILLION INNOCENT MUSLIMS , hey imagine if we wasn't being so careful ducan
now so far the muslim extremists (who we both agree are evil yes) have managed less then 10,000 deaths and less the 5000 of them were not muslims
try hard to think about this
try hard to think about how our govenment would have reacted if quarter of a million people were killed on sept 11th instead of 3000
would we accept 250,000 innocent US losses ?
not one of these people had attacked the US or planned too , they had normal lives , equal to yours and mine ,
i am sure that you dont doubt that the civilians were innocent here
so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing
as for your crap about the geneva convention dont ev en start me there , the geneva convention has a chapter devoted to dealing with terrorists , we dont seem to want to apply it there
duncan said "As to your question of when is ok to drop a bomb and kill innocent women and children? This question is typical of the weak-knee'd pacifists who cry out that all war should be ended because innocents are killed."
sorry duncan your making a huge error that those on the right always make , like most people here i am using a different name , anyone with a brain could probably work out that i am infact male , my career has been glossed over to a degree but my job does not allow me to identify myself , let me just make one thing clear , i am less of a pacifist then yourself , my work brings me into contact with alot of death , i am often a witness to many a situation that you wouldnt know of , it doesnt make the press , i support the need for war and a was a strong advocate for the first gulf war and kosovo , you should not assume that because someone doesnt agree with you then therefore they must me a what ever ,
duncan said "However, there are animals out there who don't give a crap about your pacifism and your pseudo-intellectualism."
duncan , nobody is arguing about the "animals" i argue that your point is we didnt mean to kill any of those quarter of million people who were not animals" thats a hell of an accident duncan
you ready to come back at me with any FACTS duncan ?
will get to the next reply as soon as i can , but i am not going to waste my time with
(a) people who just quote the quran , we have done that , you quote i quote , what a silly game
(b) anyone who thinks i am a muslim , if someone is too dumb to read what has already been said then they dont deserve a response
(c) any response that is just pure rhetoric and doesnt not contain any facts to challenge
If they're facts how can you challenge them?
Toni, what is it that you're trying to accomplish in these comments other than troll?
What quarter of a million? What the deuce are you referring to? There are closed to 20,000 Iraqis who've died in Iraq since the liberation efforts, and that's nowhere near a quarter of a million. Where are your facts?
It's easy to demand facts of others but respond with sweeping generalities, but I ask you: why should we even bother to respond when you don't practice what you preach and you don't follow the directives you're making to others? That's inconsistent. That's like a parent who smokes who tells his kids not to. Actions speak louder than words, and that's like "do as I say not as I do". Doesn't work. It's hypocritical.
It's equally as dumb to continue trolling if you don't have a point to make; if you're just trying to make a pest of yourself, which you've done successfully. Are you the kid that was constantly ignored by its mother so you have to go out into the world grabbing as much negative attention as possible? There's a solution for that; it's called counseling.
Saddam himself murdered let's see; I think the figure is somewhere around 300,000 kurds...but Sadddam committed those atrocities...but as leftists say, that's ok, those were his own people, it's none of our business!
Toni? Here is a "fact" for you.
I think you are full of shit.
Here is another one.
Life isn't fair and sometimes innocents die.
Here is yet another one moron.
I have a brother in each branch of the military right now (save CG), and one of them is IN IRAQ. He has written me saying "We have to get so much permisiion to fire back that sometimes it comes when the enemy is already gone."
Of course he is Special Forces with Psy-Ops, so maybe his missions are a bit different.
Want another fact?
I don't BELIEVE your "FACTS" because you ahven't shown me where you get those "facts".
You are an idiot toni.....BTW, THAT is another "fact" that you can "Go check".....notice that much like you, I didn't sday where to check them either.
next up CAO
try to read cao , there is nowhere i have claimed that the terrorists dont believe they are acting in the name of islam
it is not a very well considered point ,
i watched pulp fiction in which a character quotes the bible each time he shoots someone , so what
my point is that these minority of idiots should not be seen as representing the islamic faith as a whole , should i judge the catholic faith by the priests that have sex with little boys ?
strange but most of your points i agree with CEO (strange it will seem i am sure) how we deal with terrorists is not something i am arguing , it is how we treat the islamic faith as a whole that i speak of
you do make one odd point though , (apart from the slightly sexist overtones of your words , as you now know , i am male)
CEO said"Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments"
odd , i found this site a few weeks ago via the news now link site via daily dissent (mentioned above by G i think),then went to 'in the middle of america' (due to G posting there) and from in the middle of america to here , i have no idea whom you believe i am but i can assure you this is the first site i have posted anywhere for many a month , but if it helps your pseudo understanding of me to think you know me then feel free
CAO said"I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran."
i dont support that , again you seem to ASSUME that because i dont agree with something therefore it is OK to jump to any assumptions in my head that i think toni must believe , my point is that this is not the way to change it , and many many many millions of muslims are trying to change it
take IRAN , a huge following for democracy exists there , sadly our action in Iraq has given the extremists more voice and they easily won an election that could have gone towards the progressive muslims . another cock up from us it seems
respect to you though CAO , you at least seem to have 'some' factual knowledge of middle east sadly so much of what i have read has been armchair research ,
hmm who is nitpicker ? was that a compliment ! or an insult :-)
just going to jump forward to kender
hahahaha
"I think you are full of shit."
"Here is yet another one moron"
"You are an idiot toni....."
wow , touch a nerve did i ?
good , i hope i have , i am arguing about peoples points of view and political standing , but if you have reached the point of personal insults then trust me
I TAKE THAT AS A HUGE COMPLIMENT
thankyou
of course i am just expressing my rights of free speech , if you do not wish me to do this on this site and wish to remain within your nice little club happy in a world were you all agree with each other then tell me , just once , i will find somwhere were they are able to handle critical observations , your choice ?
TONI SAID:
”ok duncan lets look at that , if a train driver was given amphetimins by his bosses to "improve his performance" and he crashed the train killing hundreds of people , would that be an accident ?
US pilots are given amphetimins to enable them to stay alert (or paranoid) for longer .”
Point? The use of “go” pill as they are called was a voluntary program, and while pilots were prescribed “uppers” in order for them to stay awake for longer periods of time, they pilots weren’t stoned out of their minds. I do believe that there has been only one case of where pilots have challenged that the go pills made them do the wrong thing, and that was a case of fratricide in Afghanistan. Hasn’t been repeated. And you have no proof, or as you like to refer to them as, FACTS, to show that the use of such pills has increased civilian casuaties.
“700 civilians were killed in fallujah , insurgents killed during the same battle was 16”
Show me where you got your statistics. I’d be willing to bet that of the 700 “civilians” killed in Fallujah, 659 where strangely carrying AK-47s when they were shot.
depleted uranium will still be a factor in the deaths in the middle east for 20,000 years at least
You’ve been talking to Cindy Sheehan again haven’t you.
Depleted Uranium is barely radioactive and what is emitted can be blocked by your clothing it is so weak. Go read up on it here. Here are some FACTS.
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm
when the US attacks a target they accept that there will be civilians murdered by the action , innocents will die . please dont fob me off with that colatoral damage crap , that is insulting my inteligence , it is murder , the deaths are calculated into the attack and planned for ,
so let me repeat THE US DOES TARGET CIVILIANS , WE PLAN FOR IT , INFACT WE HAVE ALREADY KILLED MANY MANY MORE INNOCENT IRAQI'S THEN DIED IN THE TRAGEDY OF SEPT 11TH MANY MANY TIMES OVER
When the U.S. attacks a target, they look at the military value that can be gained from that attack, and then compare it to the undue suffering it could cause to possible non-combatants. Our military leaders then weigh it. And unfortunately, when our enemies hide amongst civilians, there are those who innocents who are hurt. However, your flawed logic is that because we estimate that so many civilians may be hurt in an attack, that we are targeting them. No sir, we are not targeting them. We are targeting the terrorist animals that live among them. When someone has chemotherapy, the goal is to kill the cancer. However good and healthy cells are sometimes killed along with the bad ones. Are we then targeting healthy cells? As far as I can tell, our invasion of Iraq had many reasons, though the last time I checked we weren’t there to kill 3,000 Iraqis in some kind of “eye for an eye” attempt.
so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing
Toni, as few children as we can. But tell me, how many children have to be killed by the terrorists? Hmmm. How many are blown to bits by indiscriminate car bombs? Many more than are hurt in US actions I would be willing to bet.
ok duncan , it seems you have been watching to much TV there , let me give you some FACTS ( funny , many people further down complain of my lack of facts , of which i have supplied many , but the facts coming back seem to be somewhat lacing in any actual information )
anyway some facts (you doubt my facts then you can check them for yourself)
you claim that wars are getting nice clean things , some stats
I never claimed that wars are nice clean things. I just said that we are much more careful not to harm innocents, as opposed to our enemies. And I am not going to list your laundry list of facts. Please, include where you gathered these numbers. And please tell me how the “indirect” deaths are calculated. Do you include the children killed in car bombs by terrorists as the fault of the U.S.? I bet you do.
all these wars happened to be against muslims and so far in our little ACCIDENTS we have killed over a QUARTER OF MILLION INNOCENT MUSLIMS , hey imagine if we wasn't being so careful ducan
Actually, we came to the rescue of muslims in the Balkans if I remember correctly.
as for your crap about the geneva convention dont ev en start me there , the geneva convention has a chapter devoted to dealing with terrorists , we dont seem to want to apply it there
The Geneva Conventions that we have adopted and signed says nothing about terrorists. Terrorists are lumped into the “illegal combatant” status and can be shot on the spot as such. If you had any understanding of the Geneva Conventions, you would understand that they are there to protect civilians by giving them protections and differentiating them from combatants (ie: uniforms). Your terrorist allies choose not to wear them. That makes them illegal combatants. The U.S. was wise not to ratify and sign the amended Geneva Conventions that talked about “terrorists”. We don’t need to legitimatize these criminals by giving them undue protections that jeopardize innocents. The rules for warfare were already spelled out correctly the first time.
duncan said "As to your question of when is ok to drop a bomb and kill innocent women and children? This question is typical of the weak-knee'd pacifists who cry out that all war should be ended because innocents are killed."
sorry duncan your making a huge error that those on the right always make , like most people here i am using a different name , anyone with a brain could probably work out that i am infact male , my career has been glossed over to a degree but my job does not allow me to identify myself , let me just make one thing clear , i am less of a pacifist then yourself , my work brings me into contact with alot of death , i am often a witness to many a situation that you wouldnt know of , it doesnt make the press , i support the need for war and a was a strong advocate for the first gulf war and kosovo , you should not assume that because someone doesnt agree with you then therefore they must me a what ever ,
As a service member myself, I have fought in both campaigns. I have been privy to the rules that have governed our fight over there. I know that our troops do not target civilians. I have seen the death and carried out our fallen. You must be trying to paint yourself as some sort of “black ops” kind of operative. Whatever dude. Your obvious anti-military stances paint you for what you really are. And I find it hilarious that you point out you supported Gulf War I and Kosovo, but include the casualty numbers as proof of how wrong American military strikes are.
duncan said "However, there are animals out there who don't give a crap about your pacifism and your pseudo-intellectualism."
duncan , nobody is arguing about the "animals" i argue that your point is we didnt mean to kill any of those quarter of million people who were not animals" thats a hell of an accident duncan
You are still not making any sense. I pointed out that we are fighting a war. And as such civilians are unfortunately killed. I pointed out that we do not target and intentionally kill civilians, but our enemies do. You entire commentary has been that we are wrong to be fighting this war because we are killing innocents (of course, you must be looking at the Iraqi Body Count website which counts those killed by terrorists as being indirectly cause by the U.S.). This doesn’t invalidate the war. Infact, you’d be arguing against the bombing of Germany.
It has been estimated that 400,000 Germans lost their lives due to allied bombing of Germany. However, only around 43,000 British lost their lives due to German bombing of England. That means we killed 9 times as many civilians as the Germans did do to bombing. Man, perhaps we should have rethunk that eh? I mean, Nazi Germany didn’t do anything to us. Never attacked us. Geez. I can’t believe that we didn’t have a Toni around back then to show us the error of our ways.
Battle of Dresden Facts
you ready to come back at me with any FACTS duncan ?
Are you ready to actually show me where you get yours Toni?
yes of course i am able to supply sources , the death count you can find by doing a search through the "United states central command" and their respected authorised links , of course we dont do body counts so you have to search multible documents to aquire your information and none of the documents are called "how many we killed" lol , you have to READ THEM the facts are there and they are our facts , compiled by our government !
incase you dont know the address is
HTTP://www.centcom.mil/ and some of the information you will have to aquire from the authorised and accepted military links from that site
i do not supply facts without being able to justify them , do you ?
but more generally the quality of the debate seems to be droping a level or two and i wish not to out stay my welcome , this is AOW's site and whatever else he/she says i do understand that he/she respects freedom of speech and i have had mine so no complaints from me on that point
i am never going to reach agreement with you people but please bare in mind for example that the majority of the US now believes bush was wrong in invading iraq etc , you guys stick together and have the odd mild disagrement i am sure , but you dont often get the flip side of your views that are equally held in at least equal numbers to yourselves with at least equal factual knowledge and of course at least equal rhetoric
so , i have made my point and with the acception of the word fascist , (which i define as the dictionary does , as a far right winged form of nationalism , but others that dont know that might think i am saying something other then that and feel offended by the word then i am sorry for your mis-understanding ) i dont believe i have directly personally insulted someone anymore then someone has upset me by not knowing i was dyslexic , how could they know )
when insults start to come my way i see that as a clear sign that individual is running out of facts to throw back at me , i am sure "some" of you still have plenty of facts i dont deny that
so . i will stop posting unless the owner of this site specificaly states that they are happy for me to keep doing so
and if that doesnt happen then i wish you all luck and i feel no offence to any of you , least of all those that insulted me ,
Au revoir
À plus tard
Interesting. I will go to centcom's site and see what I can find and see if I come up with the same "numbers" that you do.
I have not dropped to any "level" in my debate with you. I brought up my points and you did not address them. You did give me an initial source for your numbers, though not quite specfic enough for me to go right to them, so for now I must did around to find what you say exists. And like I pointed out above, you glossed over any points I had made and are now making a hasty retreat back into the vast expanse of the blogosphere. When you feel up to it, come back, but come back with a rational argument backed up by accessable facts.
duncan , please , there is one of me and with all respect it is me that has come into the lions den , try posting your views as G says in daily dissent and see how far you get ?
my point about the quality of debate dropping is NOT aimed at you , your reply to my last answer top you deserves a detailed response and contains a serious viewpoint , my point is about a general drop in standard and if any single person takes offense i would advise them to address the paranioa
i am still here , and if i continue there are many many points i would address in posts above your last and like i say i am willing to respond to any point
i am holding here as i say until i am confirmed as welcome by AOW otherwise the debate will just drop to , "get lost" "why are you here" blah blah blah ,
i am upto it now , and anytime
and no i am not exactly what you would call "black ops" my job is very specialised and does not involve me personally shooting anyone but thats another point
Toni,
You didn't respond to my comment. So, I'll repeat it:
I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?
Are you having trouble seeing things you don't want to see?
Islamofascism reigns supreme in several Muslim countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. It has made major inroads in countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Niger, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, etc. It is not uncommon to have heads of depts. at Al-Azhar University accuse "Jews" of masterminding 9/11. It is not uncommon for state-controlled media in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt to broadcast these kinds of conspiracy theories, along with calls for "death to the Jews" and also Blood Libels against Jews.
Are you familiar with this?
Neither America nor Israel do anything in league with that kind of hatred. Our societies are most definately morally superior to those societies.
Therefore, I want us to win the War. I do not want our world to be like theirs. I want their world to be more like ours. I hope they can establish democracy and a human rights based constitution, and retain their culture. I hope that they can purge the Islamofascists from their socities.
Are you aware that a poll was done recently which showed that fully 99% of Lebanese people don't like Jews?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/100-of-lebanese-say-they-have-very.html
Or, that 24% of British Muslims "feel sympathy" for the motives of the terrorists?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslims-can-expect-increasing-distrust_25.html
That Mein Kampf is a bestseller in Turkey?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/two-top-turkish-bestsellers-mein-kampf.html
The pproblem of Islamofascism is not a small problem. It is very widespread, unfortunately.
Still trying to publish a rebuttal here.
next up CAO
What is this, a ball game? Actually, I think you're the one on the hot seat, and you haven't proven yourself to be a very worth opponent.
try to read cao , there is nowhere i have claimed that the terrorists dont believe they are acting in the name of islam
Try to hold onto your condescension, ok? I haven't seen you prove any of your points, and I haven't seen you live up to the standards by which you are holding us accountable. Try walking the walk instead of talking the talk and I'll have more respect for you.
it is not a very well considered point , i watched pulp fiction in which a character quotes the bible each time he shoots someone , so what
That's a really ignorant statement right there. I don't know what's worse; that you thought it, or that you wrote it and expected me to take it seriously. Well-considered from what point of view? We’re talking about Saddam murdering millions of kurds, millions of each ethnic and religious group in his country—by horrible torture like putting people feet first in plastic shredding machines to hear their screams for as long as possible, and you refer me to a MOVIE as your example of how Christians are nasty people, moral equivalents to Islamists? Are you nuts?
my point is that these minority of idiots should not be seen as representing the islamic faith as a whole , should i judge the catholic faith by the priests that have sex with little boys ?
Go talk to Ali Sina at Faith Freedom.org and the other ex-muslims there who can tell you what Islam and living in Iran under sharia law is REALLY like. Or watch Theo Van Gogh’s movie, “Submission”, for which he was killed. Islamists don’t want the truth about Islam coming out, because if it did and people became educated about it, there wouldn’t be any. They are trying to build a bridge to the 7th century. That's a difficult thing to do when the people have access to books and information.
That's why Iran recently threw bloggerse in jail; that's why there are some really tough things going on there and people are being tortured by the regime and are being put to death.
strange but most of your points i agree with CEO (strange it will seem i am sure) how we deal with terrorists is not something i am arguing , it is how we treat the islamic faith as a whole that i speak of
How is that we’re “treating the Islamic faith as a whole”?
you do make one odd point though , (apart from the slightly sexist overtones of your words , as you now know , i am male)
CEO said"Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments"
You spell you name like a girl and your little “i”s look like a 6th grade girl who uses a purple pen and draws hearts on the small “I’s.
odd , i found this site a few weeks ago via the news now link site via daily dissent (mentioned above by G i think),then went to 'in the middle of america' (due to G posting there) and from in the middle of america to here , i have no idea whom you believe i am but i can assure you this is the first site i have posted anywhere for many a month , but if it helps your pseudo understanding of me to think you know me then feel free
Sorry, the girl’s name was “Tomi”. I was mistaken. Your pseudo intellectualism isn't getting very far, Toni. Your points are rather weak, your fact finding and evidence even moreso.
CAO said"I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran."
i dont support that , again you seem to ASSUME that because i dont agree with something therefore it is OK to jump to any assumptions in my head that i think toni must believe , my point is that this is not the way to change it , and many many many millions of muslims are trying to change it
But you do lament their deaths, and you are a big supporter of Islam in that you’re coming here defending it with not much of a strategy. Do you know any muslims, and if you do, where are they? Could it be you don't know any? After all, the Qu'ran says not to befriend the unbelievers because then you're considered an apostate or an infidel to other muslims. Perhaps you should study up on it a little more.
take IRAN , a huge following for democracy exists there , sadly our action in Iraq has given the extremists more voice and they easily won an election that could have gone towards the progressive muslims . another cock up from us it seems
Our action in Iraq had nothing to do with the extremists in Iran. Actually, when the Shah fled Iran for fear of his life, the Ayatollah Khomeini started his reign of terror, and that’s when the mullahs took over. That was in the ‘70’s. Is that when you were born? You don’t seem to have much of a recollection of historical fact that has bearing on the situation in Iraq or the Middle East in general. They won an election because it was a rigged election. It didn't matter who went to the polls, and a lot of people knew that, and stayed home. As I said, the mullahs are in control. Go educate yourself at Faith Freedom.org. There are a lot of former muslim Iranians who post articles there.
respect to you though CAO , you at least seem to have 'some' factual knowledge of middle east sadly so much of what i have read has been armchair research ,
Thank you for mentioning it. I like to think I have some insight into--not only the mentality--but the Qu'ranic basis for terrorism, and understanding why the majority of muslims remain silent. It could have something to do with--knowing an Arab Christian who fled Egypt with his family for American freedom instead of sharia law, knowing Iranians who are former muslims, etc.. They have educated me, delighted that I'm interested.
hmm who is nitpicker ? was that a compliment ! or an insult :-)
Nitpicker was a troll that was a pain in the ass. You are much more intelligent, and don’t get off on pissing people off the way he did.
Toni,
You said "i am holding here as i say until i am confirmed as welcome by AOW otherwise the debate will just drop..."
I've been busy, and this is the first chance I've had to respond here today (although, off and on, I've glanced at a few comments which popped into my inbox). I want you to know that I've not been stonewalling here. Also, I will admit that I haven't read all the comments thoroughly, but I did notice a later one of yours in my inbox; I've quoted from your comment in the first paragraph of this comment of mine.
As I've said before, I support the right of free speech, especially in a discussion forum. Of course, I don't have unlimited time to respond. I hope that you understand and respect that limitation.
Another gender clarification, just for the record. I am female. The name "AOW" doesn't make that clear, of course. And "Toni," with an "i" is usually female, so I can understand the confusion on that matter.
Toni, I doubt that anything will be resolved in the discussion, but I have no problem with your making comments as long as you understand that I'm not hovering over this blog, night and day. Others' schedules may allow for more interaction.
And you are correct in that many--left, right, and in between--have strong convictions.
PS: Thank you for holding until I could get back to you.
more interesting points i note , plenty worthy of a response ,a few not,
anyone pointing out i have not dealt with there question you will probably find that i have ONLY got as far as replying to post number 31 ! apart from a quick trip to kendal ,
my next reply would be the first sensible post after 31 , so far this makes 81 posts , give me a chance !!
a general idea would proabably help , do YOU think i am a pest etc etc ? if so , like i say , i WILL NOT waste my time
do you want a debate with someone who comes from a different camp then you ? , or do you just want a cosy friendly world full of folks that are like minded ?
i enjoy the debate , i enjoy having so many people wishing to question what i say , i have no wish to be on some site where everyone agrees with me of which there are thousands , i am NOT here to just stir trouble , these really are my views , and as am sure you know there are also thousands of sites like this , so if this one doesnt want me , then i will be off
Toni,
You said, "i am NOT here to just stir trouble , these really are my views..."
I happen to teach policy debate, so if I decide things are out of hand and decide that you are "a pest" (your term, not mine), I'll say so as the "judge"; and we will, at that point, cut off discussion with as few hard feelings as possible.
Is that fair to your way of thinking?
ok AOW , thankyou for your reply and thankyou for your clarification , i agree toni probably sounds female , i just picked it at random
, it was me that said i would reply to each and every post , and it is me that is fortunate enough at this brief time to have enough time to monitor this and a few other sites , i apreciate that the real world does not normally allow us such a right .. and if i wanted constant response i would just set up my own blog , i keep responding because others do , and in the main you seem to have a respectful bunch of readers ,
to reply to each post will become a boring experience , and like i said as well there is little to be gained by either side in the end , views will not change
so if it is ok with you all , i will stop replying to ALL the posts now , but PLEASE (this is to everybody) if you really believe in your heart that i have
(a) ignored your question
(b) not answered that crucial point you believe you have that would destroy my argument in a second .etc
(c) run away
(d) run out of answers
(e) anything else
then i am still checking this post and any "short and simple" points below this answer i will answer directly or any points if you request
if you really insist that this "pest" ,"idiot" , "moron" etc should reply to every single point then fine by me , just ask
either way , my thanks (genuine) goto AOW for allowing and respecting free speech ,
and my respect to you all
fine by me :-)
to my mind , i have been respectful to all and it should be obvious i do not do this for a joke .
however , on the flip side , i also have better things to do then monitor a blog , so the intensity of my replies could not continue as is anyway
thanks
Anonymous,
Just to let you know that I found the link you posted in these many comments.
Thanks!
Toni,
You don't have to respond to mine, no worries. Read it, but that's all I ask of you. I do agree that resorting to personal attacks is uncool. I for one am bored if everyone is always agreeing all the time....look how many comments we get when we actually have different viewpoints. It makes for interesting discussion and isn't that what we all would like to have? Calm, reasoned discussion...
All I ask is if you quote statistics or info that may seem hard to believe, that you give us a link to check it out for ourselves. If not, I'm inclined not to believe the info.
As long as we (the general "we") are respectful of each other, perhaps we can all learn something.
a few random answers for fun...
to the person who claimed my numbers for fallujah were in correct , i will not post a link here but , goto independant clearing house web site , goto the videos on the left , click the one that says fallujah , it was fimed by our armed forces
i won't link it due to the images being soooo graphic , but are you REAllY telling me what ? that the isurgents ran into the town and quickly replaced all those mutalated terrorists with little old ladies and children , the dressed up in US uniforms and filmed it ? thats the only explantion i can find , you tell me
i was in fallujah aprox 8 weeks after the event , i do NOT hate the US , how weird
this idea of muslims chearing in the street is over played , yes a few did , but i also remember a lot of MY friends showing glee when we shot down an iranian passenger plane , yes they were idiots , how many MILLIONS of muslims , how many did you see enjoying it ?
saddam hussien condemmed the attacks
syria supplied us with most of our key intelligence
the northen allience did 95% of the work against the taliban
saudi arabia allowed us to use there land , pakistan have gone hunting for us , the list is endless of full and complete support from countries that are without doubt muslim ,
and of course there is the not very nice muslim regimes such as uzbekistan who we befriend becaause it suits us
as for my point on israeli atrocaties , i used one single example , i am sorry ! , like many countries i could have used hundreds , infact you will find that israel has been brought to the UN security council a lot more times then any muslim country , including iraq and if was not for the veto roll of the UN then israel would have the longest list of crimes of any country in the UN , but MY fight is not with israel, i respect israels right to exist , i respect israels right to defend itself , and israel is a whole different subject all together that gets people over heated , so my mention of the palastinian boy was ment a small 'hint' rather then pushing the debate towards this pro/agaisnt israel thing , were we would all disagree little
someone said "our actions in iraq have nothing to do with iran "
eek , the south of iraq is a shia powerbase , Iran is mainly a shia powerbase , the British warned us NOT to allow the shia to gain control of iraq as this would create a shia mass that crosses national border , which would weaken the two countries control over the populus , infact if you check you will find that israel advised us the same.
the depleted uranium deniel .. the US representives are reporting a 1200% increase in childhood cancer in iraq due to DU , maybe if we let the cancer see your web link it will realise that it is wrong and stop killing them
someone asked what the indirect deaths ment , it is simple
let me give you an example from our side , if you are shot in iraq and they get you out of the country to the hospital in germany , then you die , you didnt die in iraq , so therefore you are not included in the numbers
with tie civilians , if an explosion hits say a tv station and a house across the street gets knocked down by the blast .. technically it is the bricks from the house that killed you not the bomb (indirect)
it is only direct if they can find shrapnel or bullets etc inside you , if you get killed by something that was secondary to the actual explosive , then it is indirect
someone asked if all the deaths included the attacks by the insurgents , yes they do , but before you respond , you tell me of a SINGLE terrorist attack in iraq before we took the fight there ? you tell me of a single terrorist in iraq (yes zarqawi was there he arrived in jan 2003 for the war) so why should those innocents not be claimed as US indirect deaths , we took it there .. do remind me why ? ,
dont forget that saddam hussein sent his envoy to london and he met with a representive of monsiour wolferwitz to agree to hold UNITED NATION monitored elections within 2 years (2004) and to step down , we told him to bog off
anyway .. just a few replies to a few randon questions , dont assume anythin by what i havnt answered . just being courtous enough to reply to a few points people asked of me
thankyou esther , all points noted and agreed with :-) and yes it is much better to have a respectull fight , i am sure AOW is verp popular anyway , but 88 comments does say that having "an enemy in the camp" does widen the debat
oh and esther , seing as you were so kind i ahve searched back and looked at your reply , again i have picked one at random , you claim my "fact" that bechtel built a dual use in 1988 was false , it is not my job to find every single fact to prove my point but i will provide you wilt more then enough checkable facts to prove it yourself
Bechtel not only disregarded Iraq’s chemical warfare atrocities, it may have helped create them.
Bechtel signed a 1988 contract to manage the engineering and construction of a petrochemical plant nearBaghdad.
Many have worried that Iraq has used the plant to develop chemical weapons. Consider the following startling findings:
Bechtel signed a contract to consult in the construction of a petrochemical complex (PC-2)south of Baghdad, just four months after the Hussein government infamously “gassed the Kurds” with mustardgas.
The Bechtel design involved “dual-use” technology. According to Middle East Defense News, “a keyfeature of the PC-2 project was the plan to manufacture ethylene oxide, a precursor chemical that is easily converted to thyodiglycol, which is used in one step to make mustard gas.”
When UN weapons inspectors arrived in 1991, they declared that the industrial complex including PC-2 was a major part of the “smoking gun”proving Iraq was pursuing a “Weapons of Mass Destruction” (WMD) program
there is more then enough there for you to find a fault with if you wish ..
the information comes from reuters database and was picked up by many US and world wide newspapers
the problem with supplying links is someone will always find fault , i present facts with details , and if someone questions such a fact then i will point them to where they too can see these 'facts'
of course i dodnt work for bechtel , i didnt build the factory , so i cant prove it beyond doubt but i note the Bechtel did not even bother to deny its dual use until 1991
I find myself less concerned about what the Koran may or may not say and more concerned about the radical muslim ACTIONS. Toni, listen up, they will not hesitate to kill you and yours unless you submit. They give no quarter to others, even those of thier own faith. These are not people that can be dismissed as mere terrorists. They have one goal in mind, the re-establishment of the Caliphate. Learn what that means.
Beakerlin
you think you are the only person who knows people from the horror of 1939-45 , i speak the views of many jewish friends that actually lived through it to , you wish to deny there right just because you say so ,
there are some people who are just plain prejudice , the can justify slavery , they can justify western world domanance , and they can pick and choose facts to there liking , you just sound verging on racist to me i wont say you are because i dont know you , but the last time i head such a strong view the person speaking was wearing a sheet on his head
and gm roper , yes i agree , they would kill me , yes i agree it has nothing to do with what it does or does not say in the quran , hey i want them out the way as much as you , but the diference is that they will NEVER listen to a US gun , they will never listen to me or you or the pope or whatever
there really is only ONE way to win , support the moderates ,
in some countries , (UK,france,germany) once an al-qaeda operative is jailed (as they damn well should be) then the high ranking muslims start paying them visits to explain over and over and over to these idiots that they are wrong , that the quran does not say they should do this , that they are mis -reading there holy book , that they are a disgrace to islam , you dont hear about it , it is not on the news , but the battle is takin place between the majority moderate and the minority extremists , it may not be all we want but it is action , and if we turn our backs on them , and the hundreds of millions of peacefull muslims turn to the extremists instead of us then we have got problems ,
of course they could do better , of course the main stream media could put out what they say more often as well , but the essense is , these people need OUR help , if you treat them all as one nasty bunch of evil terrorists to be then what hope do they have , these people genuinly want to get terrorism out of islam and they are not being helped by people jumping on every single islamic person/country/quote etc
and i do note that you dont all feel that it is all islam that is a fault , i speak to those that do
Hey Toni you dumba$$$
Unlike you I am a Jew so don't you go lecturing me about how my people feel about anything. We speak rather eloquently for ourselves and do not need morons like you to talk in our name.
Hey Dumba$$$ you are not suposed to reveal if you are a goverment employee with a security clearance even in an cyberspace blog. Talk to the geniuses in human resources.
You are not even to identify yourself unless asked directly by law enforcement . Guess the rules don't apply to you.
You can not touch the facts as presented so you cry racist. Try responding to the facts 1300 years of colonialism Jim Crowe slavery and Genocide are facts not opinions. The fact that they do not fit into your Cumbaya internationalist idiocy is your problem.
Excuse me as a Joooo when I see anti semitism it is exclusively from the left. FYI you are talking to an anti communist liberal Republican.
hehehehe your funny , i like you
"Lets take this one slowly as you are clearly brain impaired. You have not adressed the universiality of the Islamic brutality. Joooos, Christians , Bhudists , Hindoooooos, Zoroastrians all just happen to have the same expeience. Let me guess they are all lying to defame the religion of peace and telling the exact same lie"
i never said anyone was lying but feel free to make up anything you want that you think that i think !
i pointed out the ethnic cleansing of jews carried out by christians
instead of blarring out with both barrels try using those lovely eyes and read what someone else has wrote , ponder it , then respond to it , it is called dialogue , sadly you seem to have got a standard rant you pour out to anyone that will listen
all of your responses so far seem to have been purely about what you think , instead of actually reading what i put as the others did then creating a response based on my content , sadly the conversation you are having just happens to be with yourself ,
we can all do that my fluffy little friend :-)
do you want to talk about diego garcia ?
do you want to talk about slavery ?
do you want to talk about penquins with cute furry hats ?
if you actually already know the answers to the questions that i will give before i even read the response then trust me , you dont need me
you said "Here we go again the Nazis were left wing. Ethnic cleansing colectivzation and remember the term National socialist.Speaking of progressives who put Muslims on Cattle cars and sent them to die in a frozen wasteland. In your defense the progressives butchered Balts, Poles etc. What a great concept using starvation as a government tool."
hahahahahaha , that is the best joke i have heard all day , pleaaaase just for me , go look in that dictionary you qoute so much . i know that it was called national socialism , alas the only connection to socialism is the word ,
lets try the first dictionary i find online
The noun fascist has one meaning:
Meaning #1: an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views
what a suprise , it is right wing
like any political scale it goes full circle and in fact fascim on the far right ,and communism on the far left are not extremes really but are almost joining each other in many ways , of course you cant educate me , i am of slow brain so i will be as quick as i can phoning the worlds dictionaries to inform them of their error and that you of course are right
what concerns me most about your good self is that even though you have already made many assumptions that you have already found to be wrong , that doesnt stop you one bit , you keep on holding on to the rope , ignoring the failing of you powers of guestimation and coming back anyway
again you said "Fact : No Holocaust survivor I ever met and I spoken with Hundreds
ever blamed Christianity."
funny , i never blaimed christanity either , hmmm you must have imagined that i did , i wonder where these voices come from . but feel free to point out where i did ? ,
what i talked of happened in 1095-NOV-27 , now do tell me if you know anyone alive from 1095 , because if you do then we have discovered the reason for your super duper brain power !
"You can also find the same fake indigenous people working as contract killers of Indians in Nicaragua pick up the Black Book of Communism"
am sure you can dear :-)
you said " Do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge ?"
sure , how much ?
you said "Do not talk about Christianity in your response"
erm ok so thats jews and christians i can't talk about now then .... hmmm
you said "these people were there long before the merry local Jihadist came over and imposed Jim Crowe , Slavery, Ethnocide and Genocide"
ah i see , so it was the muslims that were responsible for slavery , damn . better ring all the high schools too , those idiots are teaching it wrong , tch
you said "take my advice start reading Fred Issac, Bat Yeor , Robert Spencer , Serge Trifkofic and get a clue. Still haven't read the PLO charter yet are you learning impaired."
sadly i have already read the PLO charter , if i would have known it had been in your reading list , i would have probably given it a miss , but it is to late now
you said "You have not got a clue." maybe so but i have got a dictionary , want to swap ? :-)
you said in another of your most talented assumptions "why does the left run closed and censored blogs and I can not find a Conservative blog that is censored."
try www.dailydissent.org they will be more then happy to take your call , though i do hope you brush up a little when you go in
now see , not a single insult needed , wow isnt that clever , us growns up do that kind of thing all the time
i have no desire to go somewhere else , but alas if my being here results in the kind of loving ,caring friendly debate that you yourself offer then i should go and find some one who can make there point with a little bit more intelligence , a lot more respect and probably a dash more maturity ,
of course , maybe there is scientific value in your "Does your wife muzzle you in public ? " comment , but i am probably just tooooooo dumb to see it . but it seems we got through a good 80 odd comments without anyone else needing to highlight the amount of insults over content that they can allow us to admire , but you are of course very very smart
dont worry AOW , i did not respond with such insults and i have no desire to create this kind of level of "mature debate" so i will cease responding
maybe it is better if you all just sit here and agree
respect to you all , especially you Beaky :-)
DumbA$$ it is Bakerkin
You still have not anwered the basic question. How does such a varried group have the exact same negative experience of ethnocide genocide, slavery forced conversions and colonialism . You still have no answer. Nor do you have a response to the ethnic cleansing of Mohammed himself. Nor have you explained the spread of the religion of submission.
Hey Nimrod Fascism was the Italian term for Socialism which is still decidedly left wing.
Colectivization, Central planning
and youth camps are all typical of left wing . However lets add up the dead caused by Nazism and Communism on a balace sheet Chinas 65 million alone outdoes the Nazis.
Fact the Eastern (Islamic) slave trade was responsible for moredeath and lasted longer then the Western Slave trade. Nor have we got into the Europeans abducted by the merry men of Jihad.
Fact abololition was an almost entirely Christian movement with a few Jew sprinkled in. The end of slavery was a largely Christian acheivement. Add te Great Divide by Alvin Schmidtt to your reading list.
Next time you go to Mecca advertise that you have a Joooish wife. FYI my brother is a military officer and his story does not match yours. My brother described it as an oppressive apartheid cesspool. My freinds in NYC Indians who lived there and are Christians described the same thing. Thus I suspect you got the guided tour. My Christian Indian friends spent years and probably have just a tad more insight.
You still haven't spoken to Copts, Maronite , Armenians, Indoneasian Christians , Zoroastrians, Bhai or Hindus. Funny I see them all in NYC and they say the same thing read the Koran. They have a different take on Islam then you.
The nerve of those people dissagreeing with the left PC version of Islam. You are the one in need of an education.
The Christians and other minorities are running for their lives. Yet all we hear from you is raionalizations. Beheadings and smacking planes into office buildings are lifestyle choices.
Those kids in Beslan were shot in the back by martians , blame Ray Walston. Do you want to discuss who blew up the WTC twice. I was there and while we are at it who held an anti semitic protest in Union Square Park and blamed the Jooos for 9-11 . The buildings were still burning and the stench of death lingered and the left blamed the Joooooos and I was there. Can we say modern Blood Libel ?
Seriously you need to read something besides Mother Jones and High Times
Toni, I hope you're still monitoring this post. It should be clear to both sides of this debate that some Muslims support terrorism and violence and other Muslims advocate non-violent means of spreading their faith. Both arms of Islam can find verses from the Koran to support their positions, so I see no value in further debating the intent of the Koran.
I also hear both sides agreeing that they opposing Muslim terrorists and their supporters and that the U.S. has a right to defend itself against attack and to try to prevent terrorists from being able to injure the U.S. and other people.
The clear disagreement is over 1) Whether Islam is inherently a religion of violence against unbelievers with the aim of worldwide conquest by force of arms; and 2)What strategy and tactics should we employ to oppose the aims of the Islamists-terrorists. 3)A complicating factor is disagreement over the integrity of the U.S. and its motives and actions; and the "facts" here are also in dispute. I will not address this third point at this time.
To cut through the Gordian knot of 1) we need to focus on the words and actions of the practitioners of Islam rather than try to decipher the "essential nature" of Islam in the abstract. One thing that we all should do is to read translations of what Muslims are saying to each other in Arabic, and along that line I would suggest people look up the MEMRI website, which carries English translations of a multitude of public pronouncements. I think one will find that there is diversity of opinion.
By the same token, Muslims in America should be judged by what they say and do, and key tests are (a) where their money goes in terms of the Muslim charities they support and the programs of these charities; (b) what teachings and values are being preached in the mosques; (c) what actions are taken locally to oppose jihad and keep their youth from going abroad to be trained in that way; d) clear support of the U.S. Constitution rather than theocracy under Sharia.
As for 2), I would like to think that we could both ally ourselves with peaceful Muslims as well as resist militarily the jihadists that have declared war on the U.S. and the West. There is clear disagreement as to the balance between military/alliance and the methods of war. I think it is muddled thinking to believe that alliance alone will suffice, and there is also a lot of wishful thinking about defining "moderate Islam". Biolerplate pronouncements alone don't make one a moderate; actions must conform.
Finally, I think we need to hold everyone accountable for their actions; perceived injustice does not justify evil actions (attacking civilians, mass and indiscriminate murder), and we need to stop rationalizing evil and engaging in the game of deciding who is the bigger victim. It is especially pointless to go back multiple generations. We all can chose how to respond to perceived injustice, whether by performing further evil or choosing another path. Lawfully constituted nations do have different rules than individuals.
I'll stop here for the moment.
much better , calming that potty mouth i see , well done
you said "You still have not anwered the basic question. How does such a varried group have the exact same negative experience"
i dont know hmm lets see , maybe they share common exsperiences eh ..
let me ask you a question
what do the people of all these countries think
1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: saddam part 1
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
and of course irAq today
and guess what friend my list is bigger then yours (wow eh) these are all countries that we have either directly (ie military) or indirectly (the CIA) have decided to stick our cute little toes into and mess with , of course some where valid , of course most were not , guess what , people have memories
speak to these people , i think you may find it is not the "muslims" they are worried about !
we can all make lists friend , and yes , everything has something in common ,
did you know that all people , white , black , male , female , they all have eyes !!!!!!! what do you think of that then ?
"You still haven't spoken to Copts, Maronite , Armenians, Indoneasian Christians , Zoroastrians, Bhai or Hindus. Funny I see them all in NYC and they say the same thing read the Koran."
there you go again with this idea that you know who i have spoken to , and you "see them ALL and they ALL say"
erm , i think you will find that thinking everyone is speaking to you is a sign of scizophrennia
you said "Colectivization, Central planning
and youth camps are all typical of left wing . However lets add up the dead caused by Nazism and Communism on a balace sheet Chinas 65 million alone outdoes the Nazis"
what on earth are you dribbling about ? i dread to think , i think (with my slow brain) that you are saying that communism killed more then fascism .. ?? i dont doubt it , again my friend your on your own with that one , has NOTHING to do with my posts though ,but feel free
"Fact the Eastern (Islamic) slave trade was responsible for moredeath and lasted longer then the Western Slave trade. Nor have we got into the Europeans abducted by the merry men of Jihad."
yes i was aware of both slave trades , infact my whole response was what you might call saracasm , now do tell me numbers fluffy one
how many people did the muslims enslave ?
how many people did the west enslave ?
i would love to know and your oh so smart
you said " Yet all we hear from you is raionalizations. Beheadings and smacking planes into office buildings are lifestyle choices."
of course thats what you heard dear , and if you can't find it in any of my thousands of words above then do let me know and i will glady insert "the truth" in there for you
you said "Those kids in Beslan were shot in the back by martians " oh really , so is that who i need to speak to about buying that bridge ?
you said "The buildings were still burning and the stench of death lingered and the left blamed the Joooooos and I was there. Can we say modern Blood Libel ? "
you can if you want or you could look up the story of the USS kootz and how we blaimed Iran instead of the real situation which is that we were supllying Iraq with cords to attack the iranians with when they got confused and killed almost all on board , imagine US personal dying and the government lying to ALL the families about how they died because they would not admit we were helping iraq
propaganda is propaganda , facts are facts , and sadly you dont seem to have many
i am sorry i know i said i wouldnt reply , but you are soooo funny i could not resist , well done on training your mouth though
fantastic post, civil truth , thankyou for restoring my faith ,
there are a few minor points i may disagree with you there , and i feel that yes , they have to work hard to prove there case , but we also have to work hard to help them were possible
but after the wonder and wit of beaky it is a delight to read your thoughts , and any minor disagrement i may have with your post is to mild to bother with , you seem (in my view) to have cut right through the HUGE post and grab the essense of the positions
infact , reading your post a second time , the number of things i find fault with is dropping by the second
my total agreement
respect to you and your mind , and i genuinly look forawrd to reading any further comment you make
Toni,
In your defense of Islam, will you deny that there does seem a preponderance of violence in the Koran? While I do feel that muslims have that same innate empathy for other humans that we all feel. I also feel that Islam is most consistently erosive of this gentler nature found in its adherents.
Hey Toni
Still Ducking and running from the basic question. How do such varried cultures have a negative experience with Islam. Guess it must be the rest of the planet. They have yet to get around to oppressing practiotioners of Shintoism. Maybe that is a growth industry.
The list you have printed is standard Commie front agitprop.
Lets see for example Iraq 1972 had zero to do with the West. The Baath
party is a fusion of Nazi-Socialist
with roots in France. I could go down the list . However you are still carrying a torch for the Sandanistas. The practitioners of ethnocide.
Unlike you I look at the big picture. All the groups mentioned have a right to have their stories
heard. People like you laugh pass off a PC version of Islam and deny
the problem exists.
Lets see you still have not answered the basic question I posed at the initial exchange. Can we say failure still ducking and weaving. Did Ray Walston contact you in a seance and claim Martians had nothing to do with Beslan.
Speaking of agitprop when did the US start manufacturing T 72 tanks , MIG and Mirage Jets. Don't let the facts get in the way of propoganda. By the way what was the nick name of the reactor the Israelis took out OChirac. I guess he must have become American.
From the top lets try again. How do such varried ethnicities all have the same problem with the same religion.
maccus
you said
"
In your defense of Islam, will you deny that there does seem a preponderance of violence in the Koran? While I do feel that muslims have that same innate empathy for other humans that we all feel. I also feel that Islam is most consistently erosive of this gentler nature found in its adherents."
fair question , hmmm . well it could "seem" to be a a preponderance of violence in the quran ,
i am sure i would disagree with many here on to what degree and how it compares to other such religous texts , but on the basic point of....
do "I" think that violence is a factor in the quran then the simple answer is yes ,
but it is a simple answer
the longer answer is how should you read and translate such a huge book and what cultures and types of people does the book try to address
firstly , i have a real problem with armchair analysis ,
i "feel" that not a sinlge person who has commented on this thread (including myself) is a muslim
i am not a christain either , and trust me , if i wanted to know what 'GOD' meant to say in the bible , i would not form a discussion with a bunch of none christians and come to any kind of fair conclusions ,
it is not if you dont mind me saying what we would call very scientific
how something appears to a lamen is not therefore how something is
very few (i am not saying all) people here have any qualification to study the quran ,
none seem to be muslim (surely the first criteria),
many seem to be attached to a different faith of their own (surely does not help them reach non biased conclusions)
the muslim faith (in general) is an open faith ( i am sure thats starts 50 % of you off)
in most countries i have been in over the years , the mosques have been more then happy to talk to non muslims about anything you wish as long as you show respect (ie take your shoes off etc)
the one argument i had hoped to find was that someone , anyone , had actually gone to 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 different mosques and sat and spoke to the people within
that they themselves had approached local muslim leaders and said "look , 'I' am concerned , it seems to me that what 'I' read and what 'I' see and i feel that islam is a religion of , (insert your own words , hate violence , terrorism , evil etc)
and actually reached out to try to understand their faith ,
yes i know one person above said he invited some muslims to his show , very commendable i am sure , but that is not my point ,
if you are taking a stance against a whole faith then inviting them to you is not the respectfull and scientific thing to do , going to them is
what i so often hear is comparable to listining to a load of people who support some different sport team and all share a dislike for some other team ,
so they hunt and search and research all they can to find anyhing and everything that prooves people who support the other team as wrong ,
what they do not do , is reach out (as good christians , jews etc should do) to these people
i again am not quoting any individual person and if you think this does not apply to you then it probably doesnt , but it 'seems' to me that the ideas, thoughts and minds of some of these people are not exactly in tune with what i would see as being a good christian or a good jew etc
and we sit here preaching of our wonderfull tolerance and our happy democracy whilst dropping bombs that kill children (accident or not)to fight a war that was not needed , bringing terror to a country like iraq in a form that just was not there before (yes i know they had torture)
they didnt have the death and destruction they do now , and nobody here 'seems' to have a conflict with their 'faith'
we have people justifing our actions by making suptle connections to Hitler , when iraq , a country incapable of working effectifly outside its borders since 1991 , and a dictator who' only ambition was to stay in power (not to destroy the world)
they dont compare
anyone who has studied propaganda will know that to effectively get your people to support you . you have to demonize the 'enemy' and there are many factors at work here that have motive in demonizing islam ,
in short if a child dying who is muslim doesnt hit you as hard as a white new-yorker dying then to some degree you are already viewing a person as a lesser human being by faith alone ,
governments can not fight wars without the support of the people and for the people to accept the wanten horror that real war is , this is what they want
so all i say is yes , it can 'seem' a certain way but please , go and get the FACTS from those that actually know , and that means MUSLIMS , and that means them answering YOU , not picking any quote from any web site and saying "muslims say this" or any quote from a holy book they you already accept that you dont accept and saying look " the quran says this"
it does not come accross as convincing , it does 'seem' prejiduce and it is compiled without a single muslim scholar being consulted on a single verse of the quran
of course , the hardest thing for a human being to do is to look inside themself , and wonder if they have reached conclusions without a fair assesment or that they may have been slightly manipulated in there search for answers and trust me ,
i expect nobody here would be brave enough to do that and as usual , i expect people to just simply tell me that i am wrong
but i leave you with a quote , that i am sure many of you have seen before ,
"Well of course the people dont want war...But after all it is the leaders of the country that determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy , or facist dictatorship, or a parliment or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
--Hermon Goering--Nazi leader, at the Neremberg trial after World War II
of course , who would ever admit that they may have been influenced , and that they actually had not bothered to seek out the knowledge DIRECTLY from islamic people ,
well i would like to think i am wrong , but i doubt i am
I thought I head black helicopters flying around....
Toni,
I have visited a mosque--once, well before 9/11. I also had a Muslim neighbor with whom my husband and I were quite close.
I want to share with you what I observed and learned, but I have to go to back to work (I'm on a late lunch break right now and just had to check what's been going on here). I will be working late today August 22) and early tomorrow (August 23), but I will return to make my comment. I've left a reminder, to myself, in my inbox. I hope that I can access by inbox; I'm having a software problem which is driving me nuts.
Later.
thankyou AOW i look forward to reading your comments , whenever you get time of course
as we both agree , i doubt anyone will change any opinions by this but may i add that this dialogue has been an enjoyable experience (in the main)
it would probably be apt to have your comments sum up the post
for all those that disagree with me (erm all but one i think hehehe) may i suggest to you all that when you have time , pop into a blog with views you are not to positive about and talk to the people .
i may not have changed my opinion or any of yours, but i have learnt an awful lot about your views and that can only be a good thing
i certainly won't be commenting on every post but i will be coming back and putting a different view from time to time (aow permiting)
and i also want to thank all of you that have enough intellect and respect to make your points without resorting to insults
thanks
Toni
You still have not answered the basic question. 1300 years of historical oppresion of a wide variety of people leads me to the conclusion there is a problem.
Notice I do not care about the theology. My concern is with the ad nausem litany of historical abuses of a wide range of people.
You can not answer the simplest questions. Thus you resort to racist a term you can check that initiated my negative responses.
The facts you use are at best slogans. When did the USA make T 72 tanks and Mirage and MIG jets.
Then you go into half baked theories about Nicaragua. Ever hear of the Cold War. Thus you proved to have zero grasp of history and basicaly resort to Chomsky styled bloviations and moral equivalency.
Try again
Beaky .. sorry i cant resist , you just do something iside of me that lowers the tone . ok lets go
i made a choice not to reply to you ,
for you supply no facts , you ignore everything that i have written , you obviously havent read the posts , you assume what i think with increasing failure
you presume that you have some devine right to asnwers when you have answered aprox 4 of the aprox 360 seperate points i have made ,
there are many people who have a talent to cut through a post and get to the point , you are not one of those people
as i said , you have your set routine you go through and if you find the debate deviating from your standpoint your cry 'foul'
so lets play the game fair shall we , before you muttered along i made hundreds of points , that you have amazingly not mentioned in your replies
go back through , read what i said , answer each point i made , and maybe then i will see that my view of your brain power is wrong and you really are worthy of a response
till that , practise what you preach
ps let me give yo a little example of how it goes
further up i made a point that bechtel made a dual use chemical factory in 1988
esther doubted this and said i was wrong , i replied and gave esther some more information of why i claim my view to be correct , and of course esther has every right to reply to my reply with why she thinks it is wrong
it is simple stuff , it is called dialogue , but for some reason , you want to jump above dialogue and get straight to beaky world were you 'feel' your safe
please , you really are not that important to me , you may be to others here , you have already proved your mind capacity by your comments such as
"does your wife muzzle you" along with plenty of others
whatever your views of me , i am nearly 60 years young and to me you come across as a child in this world .
it is amazing how many countries you can visit , how many books you can read , how many wonderful people you can learn from in 60 years , and i have had a great time doing it ,
i am sure you have faith in your school of thought , but there is no harm in aproaching maybe a few hundred more before you allow your ego to tell you that you have the answers , only the very young or the very dumb would do that
By the way, I have noticed that ever since 9/11, whenever I talk to someone who is a "peace and justice" person, someone who is anti-War, someone who hates Bush, all I have to do is challenge them a bit, and the anti-Semitism will come pouring out.
Let me hear you address my comment, Toni.
I don't know how you can justify a civilization which has bred almost absolute anti-Semitism within its culture. My friend, that is a sign of serious cultural illness.
And just so you'll know, Toni; No, I am not a Jew.
"that hearkens traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes."
what !!!!!!
i call him beaky as a shorterned form of his name .. hahaha
you said "Note that the other person Toni doesn't reply to is me. For I asked him specifically to address Muslim anti-Semitism. The thing is, there is no answer. And Toni knows it"
please repeat in detail your question and i will be happy to reply if i missed it , there is no reason for me not to respond to your question , infact though i did not agree with your views , i felt they were well formed , so please ask again
ah i see you said "I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?
this is such a shame , as i said i respect your views , but i do not respect your eye site , i stated clearly that that did not apply to everyone , i also apoligised to ducan who noticed the same thing , you only have to reply to me , i am having multiple conversations
and if your paranioa makes you feel that way i am sorry
if you dont think all muslims are this way then i commend you , you dont , others do , and again sadly like Beaky <--- offensive ? not to my jewish wifes mind but fair enough
you seem to want me to answer each and every one of your points whilst ingoring the majority of my points
if you want a one on one debate then ask for it ?
otherwise accept that one person agaisnt this whole site is not going to mirror the views of every post
this really is getting petty
please grow up children
well if beaky is insulting it is news to my jewish wife .. but for the sake of clarity though i value that gentlemans views i would not wish any remark to be taking in offense , a few scales up the ladder of morality then the gentleman himself
as for your question
Let me hear you address my comment, Toni.
ok .. i am white , i have seen what the white man has done , i have seen from the year dot , ALMOST every bad thing that has happened , was commited by a WHITE GUY , , hitler was white , the misionaries that encouraged slavery were white , the person who designed the atomic bomb ,, was white , my boss is white , the person with two cars , air con , and a holiday home , is white , stalin was white , without doubt the guy that shot kennady was white , the guy that killed jesus christ was white , we had two world wars , due to white guys
we had disgusting regimes such as south africa due to white guys , the next guy that drops a nuke on anyone , trust me , will also be a white guy
funny , all white , funny all male , i would go on but trust me i am getting bored
anyone can come up with a valid load of bullcrap
you know i have been shot three times in my life ,, funny not once by a muslim
that is your post reply , so using this pseudo logic , the words apply to you and you alone and if anyone else doesnt accept it then by all means tough
it is very very easy to come up with what you do . it is very easy to ask the guy with a hundred questions something else
try answering some , i made a huge post on why not being a muslim scholar and not visiting the mosques at lest 4 or 5 times to talk to the faith leaders and making your assumptions about a faith that you dont accept , instead of gettting your FACTS from those that do accept it , DIRECTLY and you have not bothered to answer a single point from it , respect work boths ways brother
Toni,
Are not religions by their very nature for laymen to consider? Isn't your appeal for me to visit a mosque linked with this reality? And so as a layman muslim sees it, the koran is, but I lack somehow the basic language and reasoning skills to see, for myself, what the koran is.
Or is your argument purely elistist? Do neither I nor a practicing muslim have the "qualification" to understand written word.
Your claim that I have no qualification to study the koran does combine with your expectation, that I have never and will never think critically nor introspectively, to give the the distinct impression that you have already come to unfair conclusions in mine and others regards.
I also take note that your insistence to allow the adherents of Islam to be the the sole critic and analysis of Islam, does not extend to either Christianity nor Judaism, as you state,
"i again am not quoting any individual person and if you think this does not apply to you then it probably doesnt , but it 'seems' to me that the ideas, thoughts and minds of some of these people are not exactly in tune with what i would see as being a good christian or a good jew etc."
And your problem with armchair analysis seems easily enough solved when you feel the need to comment on our current military engagement.
"and we sit here preaching of our wonderfull tolerance and our happy democracy whilst dropping bombs that kill children (accident or not)to fight a war that was not needed , bringing terror to a country like iraq in a form that just was not there before (yes i know they had torture)
In these things you should feel free to criticize. It is in that very same arrogance (believing that you and even I can read and understand written word) that I denounce Islam.
Please realize that this is no denouncement of any part of humanity. While I feel that Islam is a dangerous ideology, I do not feel hatred for muslims.
In particular this site seems encouraging.
http://www.secularislam.org/
That being said, I do appreciate your attempt to purge from these discussions poorly reasoned arguments, and encourage you to allow your expectations for people to be risen. Actual expectation of communication may lend to your writings a somewhat less condescending and more persuasive tone. But I fear your enjoyable wit may me dulled by following such advice. The challenge to reach out to muslims is a noble one.
Thank you
wow maccus , i thank you for that very well considered reply .
you said "Are not religions by their very nature for laymen to consider?"
of course but surely you accept that it is the expert to know any the laymen to just consider , nobody has the right to deny anyone analysis , but to really understand the texts and the faith , you have to go among those that believe it so , that is why certain monks etc will remove themselves from society to live a life of solitude , to gain a better understanding , i do not feel that nobody has the right , i do believe that (as of yet) nobody has claimed to have knowledge of islamic faith that would compare to a true islamic scholar and as such should be treated for what it is , and that is the opinion of laymen (in general)
you said "Isn't your appeal for me to visit a mosque linked with this reality?"
only in the reality of those that believe that islam in the heart is "fill in blank as points above"
and they believe that what they know is "the truth" and that they "really" understand the subject , to be fair i can't remember your exact view , so that comment may not have been intended for yourself , but plenty here have implied that islam is the BIG BIG problem and some seem almost determined in there critism of the faith and it is those that i urge to seek
you said " And so as a layman muslim sees it, the koran is, but I lack somehow the basic language and reasoning skills to see, for myself, what the koran is.
"
ah , a misunderstanding , i never claimed that you lacked any basic knowledge or reasoning skills , i am sure that most people here (but my answer is to you) have the ability to be anything they want , nuclear scientists or muslims scholars or whatever , my point is that many people here have not yet applied the knowledge they have gained in a real muslim enviroment , using these 'quotes' and 'bits of history' in a real conversation with someone who REALLY is a muslim scholar and has dedicated there life to studying the faith , that is what i would call balanced and scientific , please do not assume that i am insulting your intelligence , i am not , i am mearly pointing out that you are not a muslim scholar , it is no different to me asking you to fix my plumbing , you may well have an opinion on what to do , but if you are not qualified then your views would not carry the same weight
you said "Or is your argument purely elistist? Do neither I nor a practicing muslim have the "qualification" to understand written word. "
i think i answered this point above but i will clarify ..
again not at all , we can all read and nobody is telling you that only gifted elitests can aquire anything from it
let me explain what i mean with an example
philosophy , now now a person (lets call him bert) can go to the book store and read plato and gain a good old read and it may well plant seeds of concepts that he takes on board , this is good of course , but is it really fair to say that berts views are as accurate and correct as someone who has spent 8 years of there life in the worlds universities studying plato ?
of course bert should have his say , but if bert thinks that by sitting in his armchair reading and talking with likeminded friends online that he "really" understands the subject then bert is wrong , and if bert feels so strongly about it then bert should go forth and seek the universities , or in our case the muslims scholars
you said "And your problem with armchair analysis seems easily enough solved when you feel the need to comment on our current military engagement. "
to a degree i think your right , however , i have been there a few times during the conflict etc and i do have a degree in military science from regents london , so i guess i am better qualified then some here , but i am sure there are some that are better qualified then me ,
another however is the fact that we are all infact on the side of the coalition , which means we in a democracy are talking about our actions , some what different to talking about muslims when not one of us is a muslim
you said "
Your claim that I have no qualification to study the koran does combine with your expectation, that I have never and will never think critically nor introspectively, to give the the distinct impression that you have already come to unfair conclusions in mine and others regards."
i am sorry you personally feel that , i am sure that you apreciate that i have been reponding to many people , and i accept without doubt that every single word i write will not be a fair assesment of one person or another , i have not judged you all as a whole , i have found many comments to be very interesting , and i certainly do not claim to have any greater intelligence then any individual here
of course i am human ,and although 98% of all the replies to me contained much to debate , one or two were not of such high quality ,
i think for example of my dear friend who has to state his view of my mental capacity after each sentence and the wonder of my wife and her conection to muzzles :o), sadly (and it is me that is at fault here) you have to fight the urge to paint people with one brush (as i think some people do with muslims) and i myself have to fight to realise that some quality debate is taking place
you said "I also take note that your insistence to allow the adherents of Islam to be the the sole critic and analysis of Islam, does not extend to either Christianity nor Judaism, as you state"
firstly i did not say that the 'sole' critic of islam should be islam , but if they are encouraged they will be the BEST critics , with respect to this point in general i feel that many of your points are linked to a certain understanding of my post that isnt actually what i said but taking what i said onto further conclusions that cant really be atrributed to me
as for christianity etc , i did clearly state in that something like " if i wanted to ask about the word of GOD then i would not start by asking a bunch of non cristians "
but please remember my first point , i am not saying nobody can , i am saying this is not profesional anaylis , of course it is read worthy but we should accept it for what it is and not claim it is some greater "truth"
the next few points you make "seem" to have been replied to already in this reply , but if you feel i have not answered one , it is only through error so please remind me
you said " Please realize that this is no denouncement of any part of humanity. While I feel that Islam is a dangerous ideology, I do not feel hatred for muslims"
i accept that , again it is my own fault i spose , everyone here has similar views but with a lot of striking differences between you all it is VERY dificult if not impossible to make a reply that will include all views ,
i dont , but assume for a second i accept your view that islam is a dangerous idieology then what is the correct form of action to take ?
do we reach out to them and help them progress, or do we shun them and force them towards the extremists , ending with what would be comparable to genocide
the reason i dont agree is simple but confrontational , i 'personaly' feel that ALL religion is/has been a dangerous thing , AOW herself noted early on that religion has created a lot of major conflicts and problems
but that is a personal view , meaning "I" would not join any religion , but i have no issue with anyone that does , if i was to stand up and shout . "hey , all relgious people are dangerous" then i would be as guilty as a accuse some of , i wont do that , i am sure for some people it has saved there life
thankyou for the link , i will of course check it out
you said "
That being said, I do appreciate your attempt to purge from these discussions poorly reasoned arguments"
i do try :o)
you said "and encourage you to allow your expectations for people to be risen."
i see what you see , however , please try also to consider the environment i am in , sometimes my amusment or dismay at once persons reply can spill over into another , again , that is my error , please understand that my expectations of the replies as a whole have been well rewarded , again , it is me that has come here , it would be foolish of me to expect some kind of huge impact , that is somewhat different from in any way looking down on anyone etc , which could also be a possible understanding of your remark , if you understand its the former not the later we are off to a good start
you said "Actual expectation of communication may lend to your writings a somewhat less condescending and more persuasive tone. But I fear your enjoyable wit may me dulled by following such advice."
thankyou , alas my style is what it is , and i hope that i have only been condescending to those that have treated me with little respect , if such a style has spilled over to other replies then i of course apoligise to whoever it would be , again as i am sure you understand , sitting here i see a different web site to you , on my screen everyone has a critical view of my words , in yours it is not the same ..
if there is any point in your reply i missed then i look forward to your reply , if not than as i have with others
i thank you , for taking the time to read what i have to say and responding with an articulate response ,
so thank you
pastorius ,
the replies were probably mixed , please respect that i like many others can not continue to keep posting here for ever ..
please note , as i have said to you before , i think that many of your points are worthy of debate ,
and to be fair , i have tried very hard to respond to as many points as possible from as many people as possible ,
obviously this is not my blog , and i am starting to feel a little guilty for hogging all this space , i am happy to address your points in one of two ways
either (a) i will set up an email acount some time tomorrow and post it here for anyone who wishes to continue the debate with me
or (b) i will continue to debate this issue with you all here , but please (you guys know better then me) this is AOW's site and i am sure she has no desire for a side show
for some background , i have not been in the US for any of this post and over here it is nearly 6 am ,
let me just look at your final point where you say "Additionally, you have ignored my points. You can think that's petty, but I think there are two major symptoms of the illness of much of the Islamic world:
1) anti-Semitism
2) the enslavement of women in many Islamic countries."
i dont say that islam is without fault , in my previous post (way up) i say "hey if i thought islam was perfect dont you think i would join"
i dont , a have defended here my view that israel has a right to exist and that israel has a right to defend herself ,
i do not support everything islam represents and i again agree with you totaly with the treatment of women ,
my point , that i have been attempting to get across (far from perfect in manner) is that the direction of passive critism of islam is not the way forward , that there is much we can do to bridge the gap
as someone said earlier and i agreed with . islam has to make a huge effort right now to defeat extremists , but we to have to make an effort for them to actually have good guys to turn to not just people who will turn there back , it is a two way street and as for what i "assume" you believe islam needs to do , i doubt we would dis agree that much , it is in what WE do that i question
i genuinly apologise to you and anyone else who i have not given a complete answer to , please do not think this is because i am avoiding your question ,
if this side show is still giving more people entertainment then headaches then please post your question (and stated examples) clearly again for me ( is one of me / at least 40 of you ) and i will do my best to reply
as i say , i will post an email here tommorrow for you or anyone else that wishes to converse one on one , but somehow this debate has to be rapped up i am sure you agree on that ..
deflsman , i have already replied to precvious comments about DU , please read them before asking the same again , i wont wate my time replying to what i have alreayd replied too
as for your lovely quotes , well at least a few of your 'friends up above' have agreed in the complete waste of time of playing the you quote , i quote game ,
you want to just sit here throwing quotes at each other , go look at the notinmyname web site , there you will find 'moderate muslims' protesting with some skill , that these terrorists are a shame to islam . but i have no reason to bother to convince you , you already have the answers , , well you have an answer to one of my points , but you didnt actually look to see if anyone else made the same point and if i replied to that ..
so with respect , i am becoming more selective with my replies (i have a life) but it seems many people here are still able to offer me questions that have some merit to them , and for now i will stick to them
of course , if you have questions i have not already answered and you are wiling to examine a little more of my words then you so far have then feel free to fire away
Toni,
What I want to say will take more than one comment section. When I'm done, I'll so indicate.
Thanks for your patience.
Somewhere back in all these comments, you asked if any of the readers here had ever visited a mosque. I’ve visited only one mosque, back in 1998 or 1999. What sent me there was not curiosity about Islam, but rather a quest for more information about the literature of the Middle East. I wanted to add a unit to the textbook I was using for World Literature. When I saw a newspaper ad telling that the very large mosque near me was holding an open house, off I went.
As my visit to the mosque was some 6 or 7 years ago, I don’t remember all the details. I recall, however, a tour of the building (which also housed classrooms for day school), lots of excellent food on the buffet, and presentations by various Muslim speakers. Oh, yes, and I was told that no literature other than the Koran was truly Arabic literature. I asked about The 1001 Arabian Nights, and the hosts smiled and nodded—no answer. I guess I showed my ignorance on that one because, a few months later, my Muslim neighbor laughed when I mentioned Nights, “Those are our fairy tales. Not literature.” As it turned out, I ended up using Nights as a token because I really wanted my class to have some exposure to Middle Eastern materials, other than the ancient work Gilgamesh. I was sorry later for having chosen Nights because some of the tales were gruesome and denigrating to blacks, women, homosexuals, etc. I also distributed to the class lots of materials freely distributed at the mosque’s open house; those materials came from Riyadh, Saudi. That last is just an interesting factoid.
But I digress. The crystal-clear moment from my afternoon at the mosque was the panel discussion. On the panel sat Muslim scholars, as well as the imam of the mosque. At one point, a guest in the audience asked in the Q&A session, “What is the definition of jihad?” I gasped because I felt that this man was asking a rude and touchy thing. One scholar on the panel—might have been Joe Esposito from Georgetown University—began speaking of “personal jihad.” Shortly, the imam started waving his arms and disagreeing, in very loud volume. More debate from the panel ensued, and eventually the debate went to Arabic. After a few moments of near riot on the panel—I’m not kidding!—the panel’s moderator took the microphone and sent all the open-house guests to the buffet tables. The scholars and imam withdrew, and I think they went into a private room to continue the discussion. For quite a while, I really didn’t think any more about what I had heard in that panel discussion, but it all came flooding back after 9/11.
(to be continued)
Toni (continued),
Some time later that same year (some two or three years before 9/11), I asked my Muslim neighbor (We were great friends—had the keys to one another’s house, exchanged baby-sitting and pet-sitting tasks, etc.) for recommendations to add to my literature class. He told me, “There is no accurate translation of the Koran. It must be read in the original Arabic.” As I said earlier, he laughed when I brought up the matter of The 1001 Arabian Nights , but he told me to go ahead and use Nights anyway as "it's better than nothing."
So I said to him, “Okay. Then tell me how a Middle Easterner thinks.”
He looked me straight in the eye and said, “You want to know how a Middle Easterner thinks? I’ll tell you. It’s me and my brother against my cousin. And when we finish my cousin off, it’s me and my brother against each other. We are Semites—Jew and Arab. We are the most treacherous people you have ever known.”
He then went on to explain why he supported Saddam Hussein, hated Clinton (“a sodomizer who had an affair with a Jewess”), hated Madeleine Allbright (“Your President sends not only a woman, but a Jewess, to negotiate with us”). I was dumbfounded! And I think that I have related my neighbor’s exact words here—what he said to me was so shocking to me at the time. This neighbor had grown up here in the States and had long been married to an American woman. I knew, of course, that he was a citizen of UAE, but I thought of him as an American; and he had told me, when he first moved in several years before, that he wasn’t serious about his faith. But he resumed attending mosque in 1997, when his son was born; prior to the birth of his son, he didn’t seem serious about going to mosque nor did he ever discuss with me Middle Eastern affairs in any but laudatory terms with reference to America.
Did attending mosque change my neighbor? I don’t have the answer, but if the way the imam behaved at the open house is any indication of what goes on inside a mosque (the same mosque which my neighbor attended, BTW), I am suspicious that my neighbor received Wahhabist teachings there. Others from that mosque have recently been arrested (Al-Timimi) or in legal trouble (Ahmed Abu Ali). In fact, the new imam there, who was installed on June 1, 2005, has stated that he will not observe the recent fatwah against terrorism because it’s not “Muslim”; he highly resists input from anyone who is not Muslim.
After my neighbor moved back to UAE, we maintained email contact until July 2001. Despite my having sent emails to him and to his wife, since that date I’ve never received a response. And the emails have not been returned for delivery failure.
Now, maybe my experiences are not as vast as yours, but those are two which I've had. I've had others as well, mostly with adult ESL students, both from Saudi, and with a colleague who emigrated here from Saudi. I won't go into all the details from those three individuals, the first two who were Muslims and the last who had left Islam.
(to be continued)
Toni (continued),
One problem in trying to have dialogue with Muslims is the matter of taqiyya. How to discern what is true and what isn’t? And when CAIR, which purports to be an organization of and for moderate Muslims, has what at least appears to be ties to terrorism, and when individuals like the very prominent spokesman Alamoudi, who stood side-by-side with GWB at the post-9/11 service and then Alamoudi turns out to to be not so moderate and end up in prison for his terrorist ties, a problem with credibility arises.
Anyway, I have related a bit about my experiences. Think of us here as "rabid dogs" and "fascists" if you like. It's your right to think so. And I'm not trying to be snippy when I make the statements in this paragraph. I hope you understand that I'm saying these things with respect.
Later.
(The End)
thankyou for that reply , i dont remember calling everyone rabid dogs and i seem to to remember making clear that i dont not see everyone here as fascists , but i do worry that some are very very close to that view
i will not comment further on your post and will leave it 'as is' to stand testimony to your own view point , clarified on your own site
i feel that i have more then attempted to make my points and like yourself i am sure there are only a few people that have actually had the time(or boredom) to read all that i said ,
I feel that anyone who finds this post now will be able to address most of my views and a good 95% of the replies i made to questions they may have asked , and in a the spirit of free speech i leave it for anyone who finds this and is un-decided to make up there own mind
i really apreciated the dialogue , it was fun . and as promised will put an email here asap to allow anyone who wishes further debate
Toni,
In an earlier comment, I believe that you said that one’s ideology colors one’s perceptions (or something which I’ve interpreted as the meaning). True. And one’s personal experiences also color one’s perceptions.
In my experience in dealing with people of all sorts, nobody is absolutely objective. The same data often lead to differing interpretations. We’ve seen differing interpretations here on this blog.
Thank you, Toni, for stopping by this blog article. Feel free to leave your email address here, if you like.
Take care.
ok thankyou
i have set up an email account for anyone that feels the need or desire to debate any of this with me
alas i wont give my real email as of every 1000 people there is always one or two that might abuse it
the name of the account i have set up is a joke so please treat it as so
my email is
watchingthefascists@hotmail.com
i will stop monitoring this article now.
i will probably only check it every few days so please dont expect instant responses but i will reply to anything sensible asked or stated
thankyou everyone , especially AOW of course ..
i wish you all luck
take care
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