Friday, August 19, 2005

Announcing The Truth Project

Visit The Truth Project: Promoting the Dissemination of the Truth about Islam.

The site's purpose is an informative one, and comments to the blog there are not enabled for comments. The site provides contrasting quotations from Muslims and Infidels, what you can do to combat the Islamification of free societies, and a start on a book list for you to utilize in your own research.

Those wishing to submit comments or book reviews may do so by accessing the email address in the profile window. See "About Me" on the right sidebar; then click on "View My Complete Profile."

128 Comments:

At 8/19/2005 8:23 AM, Blogger Raven said...

AOW, I linked up to this site and I put up a little post announcing it.
If I can help...just email me. I'll look into the blog roll and blog burst thing.

 
At 8/19/2005 10:41 AM, Blogger John said...

I just wanna say I think this is a great idea, and I wish you the best of luck with its success.

 
At 8/19/2005 12:30 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

Not a bad idea for a site.

 
At 8/19/2005 1:42 PM, Blogger : JustaDog said...

Sounds good to me - I'll check it out, thanks!

 
At 8/19/2005 2:03 PM, Anonymous toni said...

sounds like a bunch of blind rabid dogs finding a new reason to show prejiduce to me

any idiot can rip apart any religion

how about some things in the quran you may have not read ,


firstly

'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'

'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself'.

'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger.

'God does not judge according to your bodies and appearances but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds.'

how about some questions

Does Islam tolerate other beliefs?

The Quran says: God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just. [Qur'an, 60:8]

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance toward other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city

What do Muslims think about Jesus?

Muslims respect and revere Jesus [pbuh], and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth [a chapter of the Qur'an is entitled 'Mary'], and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:

'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.' She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, "Be!" and it is.' [Qur'an, 3:42-47]

What does Islam say about war?

Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause.

The Qur'an says:

Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors. [2:190]

If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. [8:61

Freedom of conscience is laid down by the Qur'an itself:

'There is no compulsion in religion.' [2:256]

The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether a person is Muslim or not.

Racism is incomprehensible to Muslims,

for the Qur'an speaks of human equality in the following terms:

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. [49:13]


that is the quran , that is islamic faith , not these so called muslim extremists you all quote from ,

should i call all catholics child molesters just because a high percentage of catholic priests molest children ?

i am not there yet but i am on my way to feeling the anti muslim brigade are becoming as nasty twisted evil warped and deranged as the terrorists they seem to think all muslims are

dont you remember , some guy tried to do this to the jews 60 years ago

your becoming fascists !

and you may forgive each other but GOD will not forgive you for your hatred

 
At 8/19/2005 2:50 PM, Blogger Raven said...

Toni, you prove the whole point of this site here.
Over quoting of the Koran, to me, is just mindless blather.

All the quoting in the world will not change my mind...I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists, but so far all the terrorists have been Muslims. I don't trust any of them and you cannot blame me. Blame them.

I suggest you take a look around you, and see what is really going on. Its out there for all to see, if they really want to know.

This is going to be a huge project, I want you to know. I say it's time Muslims put forth some real effort to dispell the so called myths...They have done nothing to make me feel they are anything but terrorists.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:06 PM, Blogger John said...

Hmmm...well if that is what the Quaran says, then why don't the true followers stand up against what these extremists are doing? If they are the majority then their silence speaks volumes.

I'm sure they extremists are basing their beliefs out of other Quran passages. So, it would be the beliefs and what they are based off of that I would oppose.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:08 PM, Anonymous Toni said...

Raven ,

Thankyou for replying to my points

i agree that not all muslims are terrorists (infact the mass mass majority are not)


i agree again with over qouting the quran , that was my point , i have been around this set of blogs a few times and i notice a patern or prejiduce that ONLY quotes the BAD and never the good

so if the borderline fascists stop miss quoting then the like of me will too

your statement all the terrorists so far have been muslim is very wrong

the IRA , timothy mcveigh , our own massacre of fallujah are good examples of this not being true , apart from that .

as for taking a look around , i am pleased to you inform you that i do , it is my lifes work , i am not religious and therefore do not see the facts through the filters of any word of god

can you claim the same ?

as for putting forward a mesage from the muslims . they do and you DONT SEE IT

even saddam hussien was angered by sept 11th and condemmed it out right ! but you didnt see that did you ?

i wonder why ?

have you been suckered ? i dont believe you are a natural fascist





just because the terrorist says he is doing this for islam and you agree with him does NOT mean that the muslims as a whole agree that this is islamic , they dont

take a look at web sites such as 'not in my name'

sadly when you are biased you dont see all sides of the story , alas people like you dont notice that the first troops on the ground fighting the war of terror for us were muslims

you dont see that the major al-qaeda arrests have come due to help we recieved from pakistan and believe it or not SYRIA ! yes .. the muslims hate the terrorists too

and jay .. yes your right , and yes they are trying to redress this , we all hate anyone who uses any texts to justify hatred , alas they dont have the media machine we have and they need our help not our hatred

 
At 8/19/2005 3:17 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. "

That surely is an odd statement. In Iraq there were thousands of Jews living there. Now there are 35. In Afgahnistan there are now 2. Where did they go if life was so great for them there? There are no allowed in Gaza. No Jews allowed. Except for Turkey, which Muslim country would you wnat to be a Jew in? Also, the Christians in Iraq are very scarred that the new Constitution will base on Sharia. Why do you think that it scars them so much? Because they feel that they will be treated as equals under sharia? There are countless other examples.

"History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance toward other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634,"

History also shows an un-G-dly amount of intollerace towards non-believers. Just like when they bombed the priceless Buddist statues or when they destoy Jewish and Christian holy sites in Israel. And the year 634 is a long way to go back in order to find some toleranc.

"Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes."

This is an interesting paragrapy. Islam does allow fighting in self defense and in offense. It allows them to kill the unbeliever which is not a defensvie manuver (I think this is accurate). To kill in defense of religion seems to include alleged or actual cases of so called Koran abuse. You better not accidently drop the Koran. That may be the last thing you ever do. When you say in defense of those expelled from their homes you are obviously trying to excuse terrorism in Israel. When I read that sentence I got the feeling that you want all Jews out of Israel (you phrased it subtly). Would that be accurate? I get the feeling that you are not just talking about the West Bank and Gaza. If I am wrong I apologize.

There is too much more to go over in this comment.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:21 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"i agree again with over qouting the quran , that was my point , i have been around this set of blogs a few times and i notice a patern or prejiduce that ONLY quotes the BAD and never the good "

The problem is that it is the bad that is getting infidels killed.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:40 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
Most Muslims are normal people. Many are good people, just as many non-Muslims are good people. Some Muslims are great people. I know Muslims who are great people.

There are terrorists who are not Muslims, but the vast majority of terrorists in the world today are Muslims. And the Muslims who are terrorist all work within the same Jihadi ideology, which is largely based upon the Wahhabi sect of Islam which is the national religion of Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia funds a huge number of Mosques in countries all around the world. In addition to that, Saudi Arabia funds the distribution of Wahhabist literature to Mosques around the world. They also fund and export radical Imams to preach in these Mosques throughout the world.

The radical Wahhabist ideology has taken root in the governments of many Muslim countries throughout the world.

Surely, you would not try to argue with the assertion that Islam has bloody borders. Look at a list of wars, border disputes, and conflicts around the world. The preponderence of this kind of violent dispute involves Muslims. That's a fact.

It seems that you are trying to spread a message of understanding. That's a noble thing to do. However, you might want to look at the history of the type of cause you are taking up. You will find that there were people doing the same thing for Hitler and the German people back in the 1930's.

This does not mean that it isn't true that sometimes people do get inflamed against a group for no reason. However, in the current case, our disagreement with extremist Islam, or Islamofascism as I like to call it, is justified.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:52 PM, Anonymous toni said...

the problem is not that gindy , the problem is that when the united nations wanted to attack muslim terrorists in 1988 the US used its veto to block any action , why , because it was not in there interests then ,

some people are sooooo stupid they actually believe this started in 2001 sept 11th and dont realise that we trained al-qaeda and supllied them with stinger missiles and US dollars because then there aim was what we wanted .. to defeat communism

we trained saddam and in 1988 got the US company bechtel to build him a lovely dual use chemical factory , funny thats after he gased his own people , we didnt seem to mind then

why does the US support kurdistain who boil people to death for wanting democracy but not iraq

why does the US not acknowledge that countries like syria have supplied them with all the inteligience reguired to capture these terrorists


how about a comparison

this is what hitler said

1) "We will not continue to tolerate the persecution of the minority, the killing of the many , and their forcible removal under the most cruel conditions. I should despair of any honourable future for my own people if we were not , in one way or another , to solve this question".

(2) "He had a reign of terror. He hurled countless people into the profoundest misery. Through his terrorism he has succeded in reducing millions of his people to silence.The maintenance of a tremendous military arsenal can only be regarded as a force of danger . I am no longer willing to remain inactive while this madman ill-treats millions of human beings".

(3) "It is impossible to stand by and watch millions belonging to a great, an ancient civilized people be denied rights by their government . I have determined therefore to place the help of our country at the service of these people".


see easy isnt it . to rap fascism up in nice words but a fascist is a fascist

nobody is defending the terrorists we all agree they are evil , we all agree they CLAIM they are doing this in the name of islam ,

the good news is the majority muslims and others with brains can see that these terrorists are not muslims

and like i say . you too are breeding hatred , i doubt you will be forgiven for that by whatever god you claim to support

and if you are christian then your views would disgust me

reach out out to these people , dont isolate them with your hatred , they DO NOT HATE YOU , THEY DO NOT HATE YOUR WAY OF LIFE , THEY DO NOT HATE YOUR FREEDOM, they hate your policies !

for a non religious person it is amazing how often i pray to whomever that the purge of hatred will let go of your soul

and i promise you one thing .. you will not find many REAL jewish people who are old enough to remember the horror of the fascists that will support what you do , they would see you as no better then the nazis

the world has learnt this lesson once , dont make us do it again

dont preach hatred , help to defeat those that preach hatred from any and ALL religion

and help all those , christian , muslim , jew , whatever , who wish to stop this hatred ,

if a young muslim child read some of the comments on these sites , he would think you hate him and his faith , he knows no wrong , he has no desire to blow up people , he does NOT learn that at his local mosque . some mosques of course do preach hatred but so do many christians by the look of what i see .

when the terrorists attack , they wish to divide , they want us to turn on muslims , as they know that will bring more muslims to there ranks , why are YOU helping them .

 
At 8/19/2005 3:55 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,

About the Koran,excerpts from Irshad Manji in
http://www.time.com/time/archive
/printout/0,23657,1083918,00.html :

"...While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise. Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers, left behind a note asserting that 'it is enough for us to know that the Koran's verses are the words of the Creator of the Earth and all the planets.' Atta highlighted the Koran's description of heaven. In 2004 the executioners of Nick Berg, an American contractor in Iraq, alluded on tape to a different Koranic passage: 'Whoever kills a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind.' The spirit of that verse forbids aggressive warfare, but the clause beginning with except is readily deployed by militant Muslims as a loophole. If you want murder and villainy in the land, they say, look no further than U.S. bootprints in Arab soil....

"For too long, we Muslims have been sticking fingers in our ears and chanting 'Islam means peace' to drown out the negative noise from our holy book. Far better to own up to it. Not erase or revise, just recognize it and thereby join moderate Jews and Christians in confessing 'sins of Scripture,' as an American bishop says about the Bible. In doing so, Muslims would show a thoughtful side that builds trust with the wider communities of the West....

"Still, as long as Muslims live in pretense, we will be affirming that we have something to hide. It's not enough for us to protest that radicals are exploiting Islam as a sword. Of course they are. Now, moderate Muslims must stop exploiting Islam as a shield--one that protects us from authentic introspection and our neighbors from genuine understanding."

Notice that Irshad Manji refers to Islam, not to Islamism. That sounds significant to me.

 
At 8/19/2005 3:58 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

As to tolerance on the part of Muslims, at least certain ones, from
And from
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
d_history_dhimmitude.php :

"Dhimmitude can only be understood in the context of jihad, because it originates from this ideology. Infidels who submit without fighting to the Islamic armies, are granted a pledge of security. They are protected from the jihad laws against infidels which command killing, slavery, ransom or deportation for the enemies. Peace and security for non-Muslims are recognised only after their submission. Protection status is provided through the Islamization of conquered lands.

Rules of dhimmitude
"The vanquished non-Muslims peoples are granted security for their life and possessions, as well as a relative self-autonomous administration and limited religious rights according to the modalities of the conquest. These rights are subject to two conditions: the payment of a poll tax (the jizya) and submission to the provisions of Islamic law.

"The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis.

"Jews and Christians are referred to as the People of the Book, they share the same legal status, while other religious group - like the Zoroastrians for instance - were more despised and treated harsher.

"Dhimmitude covers more than a millennium of Christian and Jewish history, as well as of other groups. It is a comprehensive civilization encompassing customs, legislation, social behavior. Numerous laws were enacted over the centuries by the Muslim authorities, to implement its principles. It was abolished during the 19th -20th centuries under European pressure and colonization of Arab countries.

"Today the resurgence of traditional Islam revitalizes the spirit of jihad against the dar al-harb and of dhimmitude for the non-Muslim minorities."

One form of dhimmitude is refusing to look reality in the face.

 
At 8/19/2005 4:00 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Oh, and I forgot to tack this onto the Irsad Manji info, and the following are my words:

Of late, a few voices have been added to the above. Not enough voices, though--at least in my opinion.

Islamofascism is the problem. Denying the existence of that ideology is a fatal mistake. The basis for Islamofascism is found in the Medinan verses (militant), which supercede the Meccan verses (peaceful). At Medina, MTP ordered the slaughter of Jews who refused to convert.

 
At 8/19/2005 4:06 PM, Anonymous toni said...

pastouris


you make many a fine point and a few i disagree with , the words many muslims are good people is what is missing here , it is NOT the faith that is at fault but some of the idiots that think they are being muslim

the message that this is not about a whole faith of people is my point , i do not defend the terrorists , i do defend the faith (and it is not mine)

as for my knowledge , well it spans 4 decades of study and lecture within the realms of the middle east and terrorism , i unlike the book list on this site have read BOTH sides of the argument and i feel i can defend neither

do you think that because we kill murder and maim using guns and tanks and planes instead of explosives then we are better then them

i have spent over 2 decades in war ravaged parts of the world , i have seen what a US bomb has done when it landed on a school and it was no accident , (if you doubt me i will supply more)

the US forces have directly and indirectly created the deaths of over 25,000 people since 2001 thats women and children and ederly , now you tell me what terrorist or muslim has murdered as many as that ?

we bugger people with eletrical lights , we set dogs on them , we force them to masterbate in front of us and film it , we keep 20 to 30 children under the age of 40 at gitmo , we ignore the geneva convention , we murder of 700 women and children at fallujah , we use depleted urannuim , creating cancer in iraqi children

and we are the good guys ! get a grip , we are as sick in the head as them

history (and i mean REAL history) not the christian book of world as we saw it , also is full of evil and twisted acts , i defend none , but it seems you defend one above the other

as for wanting all jews out of israel , no way , i am not getting in that camp . dont you think i would be an idiot to defend one without the other

israel should have peace and security and its own jewish state

as per the pre 1967 agrement ,

israel should also stop training the kurds to fight the sunni and shia , MOSSAD has no place in iraq and iraq has no place in israel

but all this just repeats my point , you defend one and attack the other when they are the same

be brave , condem BOTH ,

for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok

do tell me ?

 
At 8/19/2005 4:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

always on watch

one sign of true faith is to look a fascist in the face and call him on it

that is what i am doing

you have become what you hate , you are Teaching hatred and god will call you on it , trust me

 
At 8/19/2005 4:10 PM, Anonymous toni said...

correction -- thats 20-30 children under the age of 14 at gitmo , not forty !!!!!!

 
At 8/19/2005 4:26 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni wrote;

"'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'"

If this is true then God will have no mercy on teh terrorists will he? But they certainly don't seem to believe that verse now do they?

And Toni wrote;

"'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself'"

This is EXACTLY why they behave the way they do....these guys REALLY want EVERYONE to act as they do and believe as they do.

Toni continues her her insanity with;

"'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger"

Certainly this is NOT one of the sura's that is being followed.

I could go on and rip apart the rest of your rambling non-sense, but I don't need to take the time. I have shown you for the simpleton that you are and now leave you in the very capable hands of the 2005 All-American Championship Moonbat Roasting Team.

Kids? Start your grills!!!!

 
At 8/19/2005 4:29 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
You have called me "on it," and that's your right in a free society. It is also my right to speak what I've observed and what I've learned.

What I feel you are doing is tossing out an accusation because you resist hearing anything negative about Islamism. I am not teaching hatred--Islam(ism) does that.

Maybe I misread one of your earlier comments. I thought you said that you are not religious. How is it, then, that you have decided that "god will call you on it , trust me"?

God knows my heart. I'll trust Him to do the judging.

 
At 8/19/2005 4:39 PM, Anonymous toni said...

Kender

i hope and pray god has no mercy on the terrorists either yes .. have you REALLY read all i have wrote and think i am defended terrorists ??

really ??

try reading again , i am defending the muslim faith , NOT some idiot who thinks the quran tells him to go murder people ,. tch

and

alwaysonwatch

let me clarify , i belong to no faith , i have read the major religous texts of all the main faiths but belong to none ,

I do believe in "GOD" i do not believe in orginised relgion which on ALL sides has created as much death and suffering since time began as you can imagine


as for your trust in god , again thats what the terrorist think too , ironic eh , they think they are going to meet a bunch of young boys and virgins ,, hahahaha yea right

the quran forbids them to do what they do , and the bible forbids you from what you do


hahaha . kender , they say self praise is no recomendation , but you giggle off to your world believing you have brought anything to this debate that you wish , as alwasyonwatch says , that is your right


anyone up for answering ym question yet , any takers anywhere

let me repeat it

for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok

do tell me ?

still waiting

 
At 8/19/2005 4:57 PM, Blogger jcrue said...

The evidence to contradict your words, Toni, are all over the world.

How is Islam a tolerant religion when I can't go to Mecca, but the Vatican is wide open to a Muslim? I would think a tolerant religion would be different.

Why are only men allowed to marry outside Islam, but the average European Muslim woman runs the risk of being killed by her family on a point of "honor" even today? How is it that men are given so much more freedom than women are in a true Muslim culture?

How is Islam a tolerant religion when it's loudest noise is the sound of a bomb killing non-combatants in London, or Madrid, or NYC and not that of the Muslim world's horror that their religion is being perverted.

Where are deafening cries from the larger majority of Muslims who oppose terrorism? Where are they?

My family and I lived in places like Egypt, Oman, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey for many years, and I have yet to see anything but the token fatwas and quotes from the Holy Koran in oppostition to the terrorism around the world. Here are the a few of over a hundred suras in the Holy Koran that extoll the path Islam has taken throughout history:

"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing" (Sura al-Tawba 9:123).

"Fight against those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger, have forbidden -- such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humbled" (Sura al-Tawba 9:29).

"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura al-Maidah 5:33).

The Holy Koran encourages Muslims to fight, even when they would rather seek peace with those who do not wish to adopt Islam.

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." (Sura al-Baqara 2:16)

The actions (not the words) of the Islamic world in opposition to modernity, non-Muslim religions, equal rights for women to name a few pervade the historic records of the world. So, please forgive us when the quiet voice of Islam is the one in opposition to terrorism and the loudest voices are those who wish the non-Muslim world death.

 
At 8/19/2005 5:12 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
My trust in God doesn't involve flying planes into buidings, so I don't go along with some of what you said about your interpretation of my faith. Furthermore, I most certainly believe in the rule of civil law. Your faith beliefs are your own, and that's your right.

And you're wrong about the Bible's forbidding the exposure of deception. I repeat, I am not advocating violence. I am advocating a form of self-defense: being informed. Sort of like that "war of ideas" we're always hearing about.

The Koran does not forbid what Islamists do. We've already discussed that issue, I believe.

And, yes, many wars have been fought in the name of religion--any religion you want to name. I am not excusing those wars (though there are some misunderstandings about some of the details regarding the Crusades). My desire is to expose the ideology behind the war which Islamism is now waging on the entire world, one which the jihadists declared by using verses from the Koran.

As to military issues, sometimes terrible strikes happen. Sometimes innocent civilians die. These things happen in every war, and are worse now, thanks to modern weaponry. I don't mean to minimize the horror--so please don't take what I just said in the wrong way. War is not something I relish, in any way.

The 9/11 attacks, however, were not misstrikes. I respect that you do not condone what happened on that day; I'm just mentioning it here.

I remain convinced that it's very important to expose the ideology which led to those attacks. That same ideology is still used to train more young jihadists.

-Signing off for a while now-

 
At 8/19/2005 5:31 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni, would you mind placing thsi question into a structure I can understand? I can read it three different ways as it is written. (hint; PUNCTUATION)

Here is what I would like you to fix, "for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok"

I want to know what makes a house intense.

And don't bombs explode? I believe it is fire that melts fat...and if you are lying around in a fire then you are most likely dead.....so what is your point?

 
At 8/19/2005 5:45 PM, Blogger G_in_AL said...

AOW, I will get back here soon, looks like the pet project may be off the ground eh?

 
At 8/19/2005 5:45 PM, Anonymous Cao said...

They never have one, Kender. Not one that makes any sense, anyway.

 
At 8/19/2005 5:47 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"the good news is the majority muslims and others with brains can see that these terrorists are not muslims "

Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

"and like i say . you too are breeding hatred , i doubt you will be forgiven for that by whatever god you claim to support"

So says the man who claims to be tolerant. Which hatred are you talking about? Is just pointing out facts considered hatred in your mind? Point to the specific hateful sentence.

"and if you are christian then your views would disgust me"

I am not. You are disgusted very easily.

"reach out out to these people , dont isolate them with your hatred , they DO NOT HATE YOU , THEY DO NOT HATE YOUR WAY OF LIFE , THEY DO NOT HATE YOUR FREEDOM, they hate your policies !"

You say they do not hate me. The Islamic terrorists and those that support them hate me (read this sentence carefully). They hate my way of life. They hate my freedom. And as you rightly point out they hate our policies. Do you disagree with what I just said?

"for a non religious person it is amazing how often i pray to whomever that the purge of hatred will let go of your soul"

Again, I have to ask you to point out the hateful sentence. Quote me.

"and i promise you one thing .. you will not find many REAL jewish people who are old enough to remember the horror of the fascists that will support what you do , they would see you as no better then the nazis"

And I promise you you are wrong. I have grown up with these people and still know some to this day. Although it is true they are almost gone. When they are I fear what you will change the story about what they went through. And I sure you they would not consider me a fascists for expessing facts or utilizing free speech. In fact, it is fascists that try to mute free speech. Is that what you are doing by throwing out the PC names.

If you see me as no better as than the Nazis than I have to suggest you open up a history book and read about what the Nazis did. Apparently you don't know which is a shame since you are using the word very easily.

"dont preach hatred , help to defeat those that preach hatred from any and ALL religion "

Again, you have to point out the example of hatred. You use this word and fascist for anyone who disagrees with you like a weapon. It seems that you are using them to trying and silence others.

 
At 8/19/2005 5:53 PM, Anonymous Duncan Avatar said...

Toni,

The United States Military does not target civilians. Let me repeat that. They DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS! Through the use of smart bombs and GPS targeting, are weapons are sophisticated enough to minimize the amount of collateral damage that may occur. Gone are the days of high altitude "precision" bombing where entire cities were laid waste and you might, or might not, even hit what you were targeting. Unlike the terrorists we are fighting, we take great care, even at the potential cost of American lives, to not hit structures that are generally protected by the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict. And that is where we are different from the terrorists you seem to sympathize with. To them we are all infidels, soldiers, women, children, and all deemed worthy to be converted or killed.

As to your question of when is ok to drop a bomb and kill innocent women and children? This question is typical of the weak-knee'd pacifists who cry out that all war should be ended because innocents are killed. I agree. All wars should be ended. All of the killing should stop. However, there are animals out there who don't give a crap about your pacifism and your pseudo-intellectualism. They crave power and will kill any to get it. The U.S. military is here to stop them. And unfortunately, there are bystanders who are harmed as a result. This in no way invalidates fighting a war. (" OH PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT! STOP BOMBING GERMANY BECAUSE SO MANY INNOCENTS ARE BEING KILLED IN THEIR HOMES BY YOUR BOMBS! JUST LET HITLER TAKE OVER AND CLEANSE THIS PLANET OF JEWS! LET THEIR BODIES BURN AND THE FAT RUN OF THEIR BODIES, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ALIKE, IN THE FURNACES OF AUSCHWITZ! BUT JUST DON'T HURT THE NON-JEWISH INNOCENTS!)

 
At 8/19/2005 6:06 PM, Anonymous toni said...

jcrue

"How is Islam a tolerant religion when I can't go to Mecca, but the Vatican is wide open to a Muslim? I would think a tolerant religion would be different."

odd i have been to mecca four times , they didnt have a problem with me , have you actually tried to go or are you getting your facts from books here ?


"Why are only men allowed to marry outside Islam, but the average European Muslim woman runs the risk of being killed by her family on a point of "honor" even today? How is it that men are given so much more freedom than women are in a true Muslim culture"

hey i didnt say muslims had a perfect faith , if i thought that dont you think i would be one ?
what about the mormons , they do the same and many others , why single out islam ?

"How is Islam a tolerant religion when it's loudest noise is the sound of a bomb killing non-combatants in London, or Madrid, or NYC and not that of the Muslim world's horror that their religion is being perverted"

no that is the loudest sound you hear , as i am sure you know now , al-qaeda did not attack london , the two attacks were made by angry young muslims who feel the murder of there own faith in iraq without justification deserved response , i do NOT validate that claim , i do not support it , but in peoples mind they see this as one huge attack agaisnt the west

incase you need informing

al-qaeda means "The Base" in english and applied to the terrorist training camps WE helped to create in afganiststan to help defeat the russians , osama bin laden became the leader of those camps after the saudi government expelled him and his anger grew due to american forces being on the "holy land" and the mis treatment of the palastinians , those bases have now been destroyed hence "the base" no longer exists . these groups call themselves al-qaeda and we call them al-qaeda but they dont know each other , they dont know bin-laden, they see the way the west has reacted and become inspired to fight back , they are wrong , but we are wrong too

terrorism is a crime . if it wasnt a crime then the US would have invaded Saudi after 9/11 considering that 17 of the twisted souls were saudi

but we didnt , the geneva convention has policies to deal with terrorism , it is applied in the UK and France and Germany , in all forward thinking countries

only the US has Gitmo , and if you want FACTS on gitmo then i can fill this web site for you

fact for you , every major country that contains muslims or is run by muslims condemed the horror of 9/11
that includes

Iraq
syria
Iran
Pakistan
even yasser himself when he was alive

every nation on earth near enough supported the US in its attack against the taliban , as i said , the first boots on the ground were muslim ,

infact apart from a small team of ONLY 200 delta force , the american forces did not even enter the country until november the 5th 2001 , for 2 whole months the war on terror was fought by muslims and muslims alone (how evil eh)

muslims DO support the war on terror , they do act , alas they dont have the western media to support there voice , maybe thats why you dont hear it ?

"Where are deafening cries from the larger majority of Muslims who oppose terrorism? Where are they?"

i can send you over 500 web pages by muslims that are disgusted with these so called terrorists and the way they claim to act for islam , but you wont like them , you see , george bush said "you are either with us or with the terrorists" you see these muslims , they hate the terrorists , but they dont have much time for Bush's tacticts either but if you want them then put your email here and i will gladly send them to you

"My family and I lived in places like Egypt, Oman, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey for many years, and I have yet to see anything but the token fatwas and quotes from the Holy Koran in oppostition to the terrorism around the world. Here are the a few of over a hundred suras in the Holy Koran that extoll the path Islam has taken throughout history"

can you speak arabic ? or how did you aquire your information ? and if you dont speak arabic , maybe you should get this from the horses mouth

"Here are the a few of over a hundred...."

thought we had covered that , oh well .. anybody can take anything from any relgious text and warp it , i seem to remember the old testiment telling me to stone a lot of people to death , i never have , i doubt you have , you should not take a relgion out of context , you have NOT studied it from the inside

"The Holy Koran encourages Muslims to fight, even when they would rather seek peace with those who do not wish to adopt "

thats funny . as i qouted the quran also forbids such an act quite clearly , i wonder how many books you could do that with !

incase you missed it , here it is again

If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. [8:61

'There is no compulsion in religion.' [2:256]

as for forgiving you , alas i can not , as said before i do not believe a single jew alive still from world war 2 would support your thoughts , you speak act and behave like a fascist and would probably gain more respect if you just admitted it

thats your answer jucrue , each point i believe (i wonder if anyone has the actual factual knowledge to do the same to me here , or do you all just get your facts from each other , books and TV ,

why not go to a mosque and ask someone who actually is able to defend themselves before you jump on a whole faith

next up for reply , alwaysonwatch......

 
At 8/19/2005 6:14 PM, Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Thanks for letting me know about this; I posted on it.

 
At 8/19/2005 6:15 PM, Anonymous Cao said...

I find what Toni says amusing. She obviously didn't hear the text of the Nick Berg videotape. They quote the Qu'ran throughout. It was a call to the ummah (the muslim believers) to stop talking and pick up the sword against the infidel. Nick didn't die because he was an American, the tape said, he died because he was not a muslim.

It's terrorists who surround themselves with women and children as they're walking through the streets, sometimes across from American soldiers-- making it difficult for them to be targets because they know the American soldiers won't aim at them with a child as a shield.

Members of the Fadayeen Saddam did that in the beginning of the war. But now it's foreign fighters -not even Iraqis that we're facing in Iraq. Members of Al Qaeda--who would like to see a Taliban-type regime move into the vacuum that's been created by the removal of the Ba'athists.

Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments, but they're pretty lame.

I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran. Interesting dichotomy when most of the time they're complaining about "equal rights" here in the US.

But leftists don't make sense, I gave up trying to make sense of their arguments a long time ago. It was quite a surprise to me that Toni showed up here in comments, AOW, you should feel privileged that your new project was baptised by such a worthy adversary.

You could have wound up with some guy like "nitpicker".

 
At 8/19/2005 6:39 PM, Anonymous toni said...

alwaysonwatch

"My trust in God doesn't involve flying planes into buidings, so I don't go along with some of what you said about your interpretation of my faith"

i see how about flying missiles into buildings is that ok , how about increasing childhood cancer by 1200% in iraq by using depleted uranium with a hlaf live of 40,000 years , how about forcing muslims to masterbate , how about the murder of the entire town of fallujah long after the insurgents have left is that ok ?
you see , i am NOT defending the evil that decided to fly into a building , but it seems you are defending the response , they are too different arguments , defend yours ?

(i note someone has mentioned below that the US does not target civilians ... and i promise i will reply to that when i reply to that person but i have a lot of replys so i will answer each one in turn to be fair)

"And you're wrong about the Bible's forbidding the exposure of deception. I repeat, I am not advocating violence. I am advocating a form of self-defense"

and what exactly have the the iraqi PEOPLE done to you ? do you justify the US action or not

have you ever been in a war zone , i often have to work in them , it is nice and clean on TV , real life means women children get killed , for nothing , are you defending this or not ?

"You say they do not hate me. The Islamic terrorists and those that support them hate me (read this sentence carefully). They hate my way of life. They hate my freedom. And as you rightly point out they hate our policies. Do you disagree with what I just said?"

they do not hate your way of life , in many surveys i have seen is islamic countries including iraq,syria,iran etc a large number of muslims are fighting for democracy , they often look upto the people of the US it is the foreign policy that gets them so worked up

one of the biggest shocks in history to me and many others is how the largest coalition ever formed on earth after 9/11 imploded after the Neocon concept to go on to iraq , stunning failure in policy that is beyond belief

did i read carfully enough ?

"I am not excusing those wars "

thank god for that , there is hope , it seems for your replies that we do no wrong and that the muslim faith is pure evil , a bit of retrospect is good , i salute you


"As to military issues, sometimes terrible strikes happen. Sometimes innocent civilians die. These things happen in every war, and are worse now, thanks to modern weaponry. I don't mean to minimize the horror--so please don't take what I just said in the wrong way. War is not something I relish, in any way."

a semi acceptable response , yes wars are horrible things infact very nasty indeed , and i am no pacifist , there are times when a nation needs to fight of course . BUT this war is wrong ,

what gives george bush the right to say "we are fighting them there so we dont have to fight them at home"

what makes a US life worth more in the eyes of god then an iraqi one ?

25,000 non combat civilians have died , yes the insurgents have killed many of those but there were NO insurgents or bombs before

why are they dying ?

i have worked with american forces in two capacitys , one with the regular force and two with special forces

there is a huge difference between them . US special forces are the best or if not near as damn it the best in the world , they are highly trained , highly skilled and a pleasure to be near

an example of my time in Baghdad when near the more usual US soldier

9th march 2004 , an old man (about 75 years old) walks out onto the roof of his flat to hang out some washing , he has no weapon , just towels and sheets etc

a US soldier spots him in the corner of his eye and shouts "SNIPER" at which point around 8 US servicemen hit the ground and aim there rifles at the man

fortune struck and a British TV reporter was near by , he shouted to the US forces "if you shoot that man i will personally hold you responsible for murder ...."

at which point the US forces stood down

if the reporter had not been there , the man would have been dead

we train US forces ( apart from special forces)under a different technique then most other countries

self preservation is the ultimate key , you can not be prosecuted for war crimes regardless or what you do , so they do not show the restraint that many countries do ,

when 700 people are killed in fallujah and not one of them is am insurgent or terrorist , they just couldnt leave as the bomb fell (i have seen the bodies) do you call that an accident or a massacre ?

"I remain convinced that it's very important to expose the ideology which led to those attacks. That same ideology is still used to train more young jihadists."

to a degree i actually agree , but to blame an entire faith is my issue , blame the warped ones by all means , but say that , dont say "all muslims"

and also yes we need to examine the ideology but we also need to examine ours

do you think they just woke up one day and thought right . lets bomb the west ?

or do you think they see that bad things have happened to them too

on some things they are wrong of course , on others we have been wrong

exampe .. encouraging the shia to rise up agaisnt saddam in 1991 then doing nothing to help them when they all got murdered , they dont forget tha kind of thing

next up kender....

 
At 8/19/2005 6:43 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni, in islam it is considered ok to lie with your mouth if you still believe in yoru heart, hence I don't believe ONE muslim condemnation regarding 9/11 or terrorism.....and the arabs have al-jazeera...why is that "media" source not telling teh world how bad terrorism is? They (Al-J) constantly condemn the west and support jihad and terrorism.

And Toni, find me ONE christian that follows the "rules" from the Old Testament.

I doubt you can.

As for talking to muslims about this and getting it from "the horses mouth" twice I have had muslims scheduled to come on my show, (one of the was Hassam Ayloush, the executive director of the L.A. chapter of CAIR) and both have NOT shown up.....as far as I am now concerned it means that they cannot defend a lie, nor counter the truth, and they know it so they refuse to come on my show.

Islam is NOT a religion of peace, and since you have fallen for the lie may "allah" have mercy on your halal soul when they come for you.

 
At 8/19/2005 6:46 PM, Anonymous toni said...

kender

"Toni, would you mind placing thsi question into a structure I can understand? I can read it three different ways as it is written. (hint; PUNCTUATION)"


kender hint ; I HAVE DYSLEXIA , dont worry it doesnt effect my mind just the appearence but feel free to ask me to clarify anything , you know it seems i am responding to each and every point being made , i wonder if anyone would care to actually respond to the many many points that i have made and you all seem to ignore



Here is what I would like you to fix, "for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok"

I want to know what makes a house intense.


simple , try sitting in the house as the bombs are falling , you dont need to ask a nasty muslim you could try just asking londonders

btw you could also try to be less pedantic and add a little more substance

And don't bombs explode? I believe it is fire that melts fat...and if you are lying around in a fire then you are most likely dead.....so what is your point?

what a stupid point ! , so when the planes hit the towers then all the people on board would have been dead .. so what you upset about ... how odd

i am sure now that you have never seen such a sight , an armchair critic maybe ?

next up .. gindy .....

 
At 8/19/2005 6:54 PM, Blogger Kender said...

ooohh......I can't wait......hey Toni, did you hear about this quote?

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran...should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

It was said by Omar M. Ahmad, Chairman of CAIR, to a crowd of muslims on California in July of 1998.

What say you now Moonbat?

 
At 8/19/2005 7:03 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
I will respond to your response to me. I have not read the rest of the thread. I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?

Are you having trouble seeing things you don't want to see?

Islamofascism reigns supreme in several Muslim countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. It has made major inroads in countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Niger, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, etc. It is not uncommon to have heads of depts. at Al-Azhar University accuse "Jews" of masterminding 9/11. It is not uncommon for state-controlled media in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt to broadcast these kinds of conspiracy theories, along with calls for "death to the Jews" and also Blood Libels against Jews.

Are you familiar with this?

Neither America nor Israel do anything in league with that kind of hatred. Our societies are most definately morally superior to those societies.

Therefore, I want us to win the War. I do not want our world to be like theirs. I want their world to be more like ours. I hope they can establish democracy and a human rights based constitution, and retain their culture. I hope that they can purge the Islamofascists from their socities.

Are you aware that a poll was done recently which showed that fully 99% of Lebanese people don't like Jews?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/100-of-lebanese-say-they-have-very.html

Or, that 24% of British Muslims "feel sympathy" for the motives of the terrorists?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslims-can-expect-increasing-distrust_25.html

That Mein Kampf is a bestseller in Turkey?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/two-top-turkish-bestsellers-mein-kampf.html

The pproblem of Islamofascism is not a small problem. It is very widespread, unfortunately.

 
At 8/19/2005 7:12 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
You asked the question:

"for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok ?"

In war, such things happen. The term "acceptable" is an odd choice of words. The question is, was it preferable to drop a bomb on that house? Was Hitler in the house? Was there intelligence that led the Army to believe that something was going on in the house which could endanger the lives of many people?

Was the goal to kill innocent children?

I don't know what specific incident you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure the American military didn't say to themselves, "Let's go bomb a house full of children."

I'm guessing you witnessed this, and it seems to have caused you a great deal of distress. For that, I wouldn't blame you. That would be a horrific thing to witness.

My father witnessed such things in WWII, and he would not have said that WWII was not worth fighting.

Are you a Pacifist?

 
At 8/19/2005 7:12 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
You asked the question:

"for when is it acceptable to drop a bomb on a house that is so intense the children the parents are all heated until the body fat forms a river that fills the room like a pool , when is that ok ?"

In war, such things happen. The term "acceptable" is an odd choice of words. The question is, was it preferable to drop a bomb on that house? Was Hitler in the house? Was there intelligence that led the Army to believe that something was going on in the house which could endanger the lives of many people?

Was the goal to kill innocent children?

I don't know what specific incident you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure the American military didn't say to themselves, "Let's go bomb a house full of children."

I'm guessing you witnessed this, and it seems to have caused you a great deal of distress. For that, I wouldn't blame you. That would be a horrific thing to witness.

My father witnessed such things in WWII, and he would not have said that WWII was not worth fighting.

Are you a Pacifist?

 
At 8/19/2005 7:15 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Always on Watch,

I don't think any wars have been fought in the name of Taoism.

:)

 
At 8/19/2005 7:21 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

"did i read carfully enough ?"

No. I was talking about Islamic terrorists and their supporters (which were my exact words I think) and you lumped in all Muslims which I did not say.

 
At 8/19/2005 7:24 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni is worse than a pacifist...she is an appeasing coward without strength of conviction and is seriously lacking in comprehensive skills.....she can see no farther than her emotions, and has very little grasp on reality and seems to fail in realizing that life isn't fair.

In fact life is sometimes simply completely unfair, and bad things happen to good people......take the folks in America that are in and of the Right.....is it fair that we are saddled with an opposition party that is, at heart, a bunch of cowardly socialists that would sell off our sovereignty to appease our whiny enemies and their guilty conscience?

No.

Do we deal with it?

Damn straight we do.

We spread the truth every damned day to stop them from creating a country that will be a hollow shell of herself.

Fuck the people on the DUmbass side of the street.

May they all move to france.

 
At 8/19/2005 7:41 PM, Anonymous toni said...

gindy

"Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?"

we can all pick and choose , does the true jewish faith support the cold blooded murder of a four year old palastinan boy hiding behind is father in cold blood live on TV

what you want to play .. example tennis . i already accept that both sides are wrong , i dont defend palastinians when they rip apart jews limb from limb for being in the wrong side of town

you are making the obvious mistake
you seem to think that because i dont support you , i must be agaisnt you , i dont support them either , but one of us can see two evils and the other can only see one .. can you guess who is who ?


"So says the man who claims to be tolerant. Which hatred are you talking about? Is just pointing out facts considered hatred in your mind? Point to the specific hateful sentence"

this article links to a site that highlights the evil and twisted things that some 'muslims' have said , it does not point to christian evil it does not point to american evil , it does not point to any positive and fair balance , it implies that the whole religion of islam is aka terrorist/evil

again how hard you search to make your point balanced depends on how valid you feel the oposition is

why not just do the demcorat and republican crap and call each other "trolls" .

"and if you are christian then your views would disgust me

I am not. You are disgusted very easily."

it depends on how clearly you understand what disgusts me , if you dont obtain your facts from a wide enough circle it is likely your views are just ignorant and niave rather then disgusting

"you say they do not hate me. The Islamic terrorists and those that support them hate me (read this sentence carefully). They hate my way of life. They hate my freedom. And as you rightly point out they hate our policies. Do you disagree with what I just said?"

islamic terrorists are not what i am talking about , it is islamic people , they are not the same but on islamic terrorists i have not heard them say (at this point) that they hate you freedom , they just want us to get out of theres

but they may well say that , i dont know , my defence is of muslims not 'terrorists'

"And I promise you you are wrong. I have grown up with these people and still know some to this day. Although it is true they are almost gone. When they are I fear what you will change the story about what they went through. And I sure you they would not consider me a fascists for expessing facts or utilizing free speech. In fact, it is fascists that try to mute free speech. Is that what you are doing by throwing out the PC names"


you imply i make such statements without authority , you are wrong ,i still know many that are still alive and i am yet to hear your point expressed

"you see me as no better as than the Nazis than I have to suggest you open up a history book and read about what the Nazis did. Apparently you don't know which is a shame since you are using the word very easily."


i have , infact i would ask you to do the same , read 1933-1939

it is funny but the rhetoric is the same

"Again, you have to point out the example of hatred. You use this word and fascist for anyone who disagrees with you like a weapon. It seems that you are using them to trying and silence others"

sorry but i use the word fascist as defined in most dictionaries , being at the far right end of the political field

a 'simple' scale would lead from communism on the left to fascism on the right , but i accept this is simplified


i will reply to duncan next , but duncan to be fair to you i dont have enough time to give your reply a respectfull response , so i am going to stop replying for a little while

i promise i will reply to each point made by each person who states their opinion , please between you be respectful enough to show me the same level of factual response

i will return starting from duncan as soon as i can

 
At 8/19/2005 7:57 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni, since you see "two sides of evil", which one would you prefer prevail? The islamic side, which will subjugate you, or the American side, which will give you the freedom to try to change what you don't like?

The islamic side? Which says you can be beaten if your husband "fears" highhandedness?

Or the American side, in which even a simple accusation by you can get a man hauled off to jail?

The islamic side, which says you MUST go to Mosque?

Or the American side, which coudln't care less what you believe as long as you are peaceful?

I could go on and on with these, but I am sure you get my point.

 
At 8/19/2005 8:03 PM, Anonymous toni said...

boy i have read the rest of the responses , am i going to have fun

just one correction so far from me i feel i should be repectfull enough to state

anyone so far who has seperated the majority of the worlds peacefull and tollerant muslims from the small (but growing) band of so called islamic terrorists and i have said different i am sorry , there are two types of respondent it seems ,

those that actually are not that far from my view , and those that are a million miles from me

incase this becomes stupid (as if it isnt already) let me clarify clearly my point

I am defending the faith of islam , i am not defending terrorists muslim or not , i feel that it is wrong to put ALL or MOST muslims into a pidgeon hole in this way

as far as those that do go round blowing themseleves up , they will get no defence from me

but to wage near constant attacks at a whole faith of people based on the actions of a minority is twisted

any black people here ?

if so . do you blame EVERY white american for slavery ?

any women ?

if so do you think ALL or MOST men are evil because 99% of murders are commited by men

if anyone answers yes to those two points then your probably in the right place


anyway like i say. i will return to duncans reply as soon as i can

 
At 8/19/2005 8:08 PM, Blogger Cubed © said...

Toni,

Reputations are born of actions. If Muslims wish other people to think better of them, they must first ACT better.

Ever since the inception of Islam, under the guidance of its Warrior Chief Mohammad, it has treated others very poorly indeed.

Perhaps you might want to look at the quotes from Muslim sources on the new site, "The Truth Project." Along with the actions we see daily that are sanctioned by Islam as "religious obligations," the quotes, many of which are from Islam's canonical documents, might help you understand why Islam has such a really bad reputation.

I continue to be astonished at the ignorance so many Muslims have of their own history and philosophy.

 
At 8/19/2005 8:09 PM, Blogger Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

So much idiocy, so little time...

Let's let Muhammad speak for himself, upon the conquest of Mecca:

[Quran 9:28] "O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise."

[Do not worry about the loss of income that will occur next year when we block pilgrims from the holy site we just stole from them because...]

[Quran 9.29] "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

[... you may fight non-Muslims; those Jews and Christians who disbelieve Allah is their God, those Jews and Christians that do not follow the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad. Attack them until they surrender and submit to Muslim rule and pay money to our "protection racket," because...]

[Quran 9.30] "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

[...Jewish beliefs about the prophet Ezra and Christian beliefs about Jesus are different from what Muslims believe, so kill them.]

Want more?

 
At 8/19/2005 8:14 PM, Blogger Kender said...

And I am attacking the fact that you can't seem to grasp that the muslim holy book, the koran, tells them to act this way....the reason that the vast majority of "moderate" muslims do NOT stand vocally against terrorists (remember, Al Jazeera does NOT condemn terrorism), is because they either believe this way or, more likely, (and this has happened), becuase they are scared for their lives also.

CAIR, in at least two cases (Hisham Kabbani and Khalid Duran), has defamed moderate muslims that rejected their extremists stance, and that led to death threats against them.

Apparently you, Toni, cannot see that islam is a danger, and the "moderates" won't stand with us against the terrorists.

There is no more middle road here, you either stand against terrorism and in defense of Freedom or by default you stand against Freedom, for the terrorists will not differentiate between an infidel that fought against them and one that claimed neutrality.

Think about that as you ponder how nice it is to have your head connected to the rest of you.

 
At 8/19/2005 8:15 PM, Anonymous toni said...

hehehe like lambs they flock , wait your turn please

and if you feel your point has been raised by someone else wait for me to answer them maybe ?

i said that in time i will reply to each and every point but i am not going to bother repeating myself over and over

may i suggest if you are reading this and you havent bothered to read the reams and reams above then you will not be helping your case , try catching up first

off to work now so i will reply as stated 3 times to duncan within 24 hours if possible and continue from there

but so far there are about 30 of you and one of me , so please show enough respect not to repeat the same as your friends above

 
At 8/19/2005 8:16 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Mr Beamish has spoken.

'nuff said.

 
At 8/19/2005 9:01 PM, Blogger Mustang said...

Response, Part I

I do not see the Truth Project as a hate-campaign against Islam. I am very much confused where “Toni” is getting this from. I also do not see TTP as being intolerant, but rather an attempt to inform those few Americans (or others) who have a modicum of interest in learning more about the dangers of Islamofascism. My concern is that even before “Toni” has taken the time to read through the material offered “for information,” s/he has already formed a conclusion about the worthiness of the material offered.

If “Toni” is a scholar (with several decades of study of the world’s religions), why does she come across as being in favor of one, and not any others? I guess my point is that if Toni would someday like to grow up and become a social scientist, with emphasis on the scientist part, then she is going to have to learn how to conduct extensive research, develop hypotheses, and create protocols to attempt to prove her various hypotheses. And of course, this would appear to be a life-long study in and of it self. Meanwhile, the enemy is at the gate and most Americans know very little about the enemy.

Islam is not the enemy of America. I don’t recall anyone but Islamofascists themselves having declared “holy war.” At the same time, I think that AOW and others have made a germane point in this tome: (1) Why has it taken so long for the so-called “moderate” Muslims to speak out against terrorism? (2) Given the Qu’ran’s permission for Muslims to lie in words so long as they are true to the faith in deeds, is it natural for non-Muslims not to trust anything that Muslims say?

 
At 8/19/2005 9:02 PM, Blogger Mustang said...

Response, Part II:

Now as to the devastation created by any conflict, it may be time for “Toni” to step back from this issue — as it appears that s/he is much too emotional, sans ranting about babies in incinerated houses. I can personally certify that Jcrue is correct when he affirms that the United States military does not target civilians; but accidents do happen. Everyday in the United States, people die terrible deaths in automobile accidents, and we should be equally appalled by those statistics. But it is time for “Toni” to understand that most of the death and destruction wrought upon Iraqis is at the hands of terrorists from the countries s/he listed: Jordon, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.

I do agree with “Toni” on one point, however. Fundamentalism is a bad thing, no matter who it is that engages in it: Christians, Hindus, or Muslims. I am as much disgusted when Christian Protestants blow up Christian Catholics as when radical Muslims kill other Muslims. I cannot help but think that God is pretty well disgusted with all of us in this regard. From my perspective, I don’t care that these terrorists are Muslims; I only care that they seek to harm my country, and my countrymen. In our own defense, we the people have a right to seek out those people and destroy them. I wish that I could offer “Toni” a perfect world — and this perhaps is where s/he and I are most dissimilar. I am a realist.

 
At 8/19/2005 9:16 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Mustang: noun;

A species of wild horse found in the American Southwest;

An automobile built by Ford Motor cars for the last 40 years;

A blogger of some reknown who is highly skilled in shredding non-sensical arguments and pointing out the truth of a situation.

 
At 8/19/2005 9:39 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Gentlemenand Ladies

The first step of responding to a person like Toni is to analyze if they are honest educated dissent or hacks. Honest dissent uses facts and intelligence Toni is a hack.

Point 1 The US armed Saddam yada yada . When did the USA manufacture T 72 , Migs and Mirage jets. They never did and that is a standard far left talking point.

2 Talking about human rights violations of the Kurds. Standard left wing fantasy dismantled by a comparison of the surrounding states including Turkey that abuse the Kurds.

3 Lets talk about the 1300 year record of colonialism, slavery, Jim Crowe Dhimmi laws, forced conversions and genocide . What people do you want to discus Jews, Copts, Armenians, Hindus , Assyrians, Druze, Bha"i , Bhudist
Sikh, Animist, Zoroastian etc. All abused by the religion of Peace.

4 Is smacking planes into office buildings or shooting school kids in the back a cultural variant. To left wing nuts it is okay and they excuse and rationalize.

5 Do not speak for Holocaust survivors ? The ones I know and am related to would call you a horses rear. This Jew doesn't need you to invoke my family.

 
At 8/19/2005 10:17 PM, Blogger The Exile said...

Toni,

Just 5 paragraphs later you can find this:

O ye who believe! Turn not (for friendship) to people on whom is the Wrath of Allah, of the Hereafter they are already in despair, just as the Unbelievers are in despair about those (buried) in graves.

You can pick and choose from the Koran, and so can we.

But if you look at the big picture of Islam today, it is far from friendly to Chritianity or the West.

Muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11 and the relative silence of their leaders in condemning the terrorists can lead to but one conclusion.

Did you se one Christian dancing in the street after the tsunami killed hundreds-of-thousands of Muslims in SE Asia last December? Me either.

And our religious leaders immediately got to work raising millions of dollars to help these Muslims, instead of sitting in silence.

They are backward savages. You can treat them as "noble savages" if you like, but that's far from the truth. When they start acting like civilized human beings, I will respect them as such.

 
At 8/19/2005 10:49 PM, Blogger TJ said...

Word are words ... actions, however, are important. Actions in the here & now.
Quoting Koranic scripture can support either side, it is how the people are currently interpreting it (and even moreso) how they are acting (whether in accordance with, or in opposition to, their holy book).

Has the US govt screwed up how we handled the MidEast? Was there even a way to do it "right"?
We could sit here and argue those all day long ... the important thing is how we react to how things are now.


I happen to think the US is starting to finally do it right; atleast WRT Afghanistan and Iraq.
We still need to work on some internal things and I think Israel's disengagement is (to be polite) being handled all wrong. And we need to continue spreading the truth about CAIR (and the ACLU).


/TJ

 
At 8/19/2005 11:11 PM, Blogger NYgirl said...

Toni, can you tell me what you think about the fact that Salman Rushdie, who criticised Islam had a fatwa placed on him by a high ranking Muslim cleric & the fact that the worst thing suffered by Andres Serrano, who did Piss Christ, as a scolding on the Congressional floor & a few demostrators?

Yes, there are passages in the Bible that can be interrpreted in a violent way, but did you hear the Pope or any Bishop order Catholics or Christians to hunt down & kill Mr. Serrano?

Islam is & of it-self is not bad, but the way it is being interpreted by the Whahabhi & Shia clerics is. And as it stands today, Islam is a threat. Therefore, it must be exposed for what it is. Only in doing so can you show that there are moderate strains of Islam such as Sufism, Bahaism & the Ahmedias, which are being crushed by the extremists.

Ijtihad is what is needed, & it cannot happen without openness. I am not sure if you have read Ishrad Munji's book The Trouble With Islam, but in it, she makes the case for reforming Islam. Islamic countries have flourished only when Islam was open, not when it was as oppressive as it is today.

The Truth Project seeks to open up the discussion, not shut it down.

 
At 8/20/2005 7:58 AM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

All Commenters:
Well, it's going to take some time for me to read through all this. I'm not wimping out, I assure you. But I do have a life outside the blogosphere.

You are certainly welcome to continue the discussion, and I'll be back as my schedule allows.

 
At 8/20/2005 11:01 AM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

A productive discussion is only possible if one actually weighs the evidence, looks at the magnitude, and seeks some sense of proportion. This isn’t possible if one abstracts isolated counter examples without references to the centrality of the situation. If Toni is willing to write-off the terrorism against Israelis by picking a single example of a boy who was shot next to his father, look what was evaded:

- terrorism against Israeli civilians is deliberate, planned, and a central part of jihadist methodology
- it happens on a daily basis at its height and would be as frequent if it weren’t for the extreme measures take by Israel
- it is taught in Arab media, schools, and approved by the general population
- it is sanctioned by religious leaders with plausible basis in Islam

If we compare that with the single action (which has now been disproven but let’s assume it wasn’t) then we see how rare and out of character it is for Israelis.

Thus, magnitude, centrality, frequency, deliberateness, character, philosophy, culture – are all ignored by those that isolate and abstract single counter-examples from their context.

At this point, no debate in good faith is possible.

 
At 8/20/2005 12:02 PM, Blogger Gindy said...

""Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?"

we can all pick and choose , does the true jewish faith support the cold blooded murder of a four year old palastinan boy hiding behind is father in cold blood live on TV "

No. I condemned the guy and called him a terrorist. Now will you do the same for Hamas and it's supporters or not.

" i already accept that both sides are wrong"

What are the sides? Hamas terrorists V. the democratically elected Israeli government? You see them as equally wrong?

"but one of us can see two evils and the other can only see one "

You keep trying to tell me you have this amazing abiltiy to recognize evil that no one else has. But, you don't seem to be proving it yet. You just declare it and therefore it is fact.

"this article links to a site that highlights the evil and twisted things that some 'muslims' have said "

I don't know which article you are referring to. You orginially said that I was the same as Nazis and was a hater. I asked you to point out which specific sentence you thought was Nazi like or hateful. You give me the above response. I will assume that you will now appologize for the Nazi and hater comment.

"it depends on how clearly you understand what disgusts me , if you dont obtain your facts from a wide enough circle it is likely your views are just ignorant and niave rather then disgusting"

Again, you are telling me how smart you are instead of showing me how smart you are.

"islamic terrorists are not what i am talking about "

Well, it is what I am talking about. Islamic terrorists and those that support them (even a little).

"you imply i make such statements without authority , you are wrong ,i still know many that are still alive and i am yet to hear your point expressed "

What the heck are you talking about? What is my point of view? Be specific. As I said I grew up with survivors all of my life.

"it is funny but the rhetoric is the same "

Again, you are claiming that I am just mimicing the Nazis. Give me an example......if you can. It seems that you are claiming that I want to heard all Muslims into death camps and want to perform horrific experiments on their children, burn them alive in ovens, march them in the snow without shoes for miles, starve them to death, pack them into cattle cars so they can't sit for days, put them in showers only to be poisoned with zyclone gas. That is what the Nazis did (since you don't know I thought I would tell you) Is that what you are saying? AGAIN, open up a history book to see what the Nazis were really all about. I still don't believe you know. Read Hitler's Mein Kompf. He spells it out pretty clearly.

"sorry but i use the word fascist as defined in most dictionaries , being at the far right end of the political field"

Again, I ask you to point out the specific fascist or Nazi like statement I made and again you give the above response which is not only non specific but, isn't even an example. Again, I ask, will you now apologize.

 
At 8/20/2005 4:00 PM, Blogger Esther said...

Toni,

we trained al-qaeda and supllied them with stinger missiles

False.

we trained saddam and in 1988 got the US company bechtel to build him a lovely dual use chemical factory , funny thats after he gased his own people , we didnt seem to mind then

False. He may have converted it but we gave it to him to make pharmaceuticals... you know.... for asprin. You can't just throw out hyperbolic accusations and not link to some proof.

please between you be respectful enough to show me the same level of factual response

Oh? Then I guess I can tell you that this is happening because the world is flat. Um, no. Or did you mean I could use facts like you do but, like you, they don't have to be true and accurate facts?

"Does that include Muslims that support terrorists that kill Jewish children on school buses like Hamas and Islamic Jihad?"

we can all pick and choose , does the true jewish faith support the cold blooded murder of a four year old palastinan boy hiding behind is father in cold blood live on TV


Are you talking about Mohammed al-Dura who was actually used for a photo op and instead killed by Palestinian crossfire blamed on Israel? Or another kid? And let's not forget their love of Palestinian street theater. If the one you're talking about was indeed killed by an Israeli, I am sure it was a mistake because Israelis don't TARGET children, unlike the Palestinian terrorists.

And that's just a few of your blazing fallacies. You want us to believe what you say, you should provide proof.

 
At 8/20/2005 4:27 PM, Blogger G_in_AL said...

Here is the most important point to me... might have been covered about 100 comments ago, but Toni, I propose this... Islam may be interpreted in a peaceful or violent way.

However, currently the vast majority are allowing the minority to use it for violence with nothing but lip service in preaching peace.

To that effect, who cares if we, the Soviets, or Jesus Himself supplied them with training and supplies.... they have started attacking us, which makes them OUR (read: all of us) problem. Thus they either quit attack us and our interests, or we will continue to consider it war... a war on every level.

OK?

 
At 8/20/2005 5:53 PM, Blogger Warren said...

AOW, it looks like you're off to a good start.

I'll add the link, soonest.

Perhaps a doctor could help Toni with her neurosis but I doubt that anyone could change her mind with rhetoric. To a neurotic, facts are just unhandy events to be ignored or denied.

 
At 8/20/2005 8:37 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Wow.....simply wow....and you know what? The ratio of commenters here of those that understand that currently islam is a dnager vs., oh, I don't know, Toni, as an example, are, I believe, the true ratio of people that understand why we are at war vs those gimps that whine loudly........put in a short blurb, I don't believe the media's numbers of "a majority" being against the war....soemday I will be able to meet some of these fools that don't understand that one must counter violence with violence and get the chance to smack them in the head......then let us see if they hold true to their beliefs!!!

 
At 8/20/2005 9:18 PM, Blogger G_in_AL said...

kender, you think so? Go to my blog, click the link to the right labeled "Daily Dissent". They are a left winger blog site. It will absolutely spook you how clueless some of our fellow citizens are.

P.S. I would just put the link to that site, but last time I messed it up and AOW made fun of me.....
;p

 
At 8/21/2005 3:52 AM, Blogger David Schantz said...

I'm going to have to come back and finish reading the comments later, this is getting interesting. I wanted to let you know that I have posted my Question Of The week. I hope you will stop by to answer it.

God Bless America, God Save The Republic

 
At 8/21/2005 10:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://middle-east-info.org/

an introductory video and library of links to audio/video clips covering the history of the middle east in a nutshell.

 
At 8/21/2005 12:45 PM, Anonymous toni said...

right guess what , toni is back :-)

and first up is duncan....

duncan said "The United States Military does not target civilians. Let me repeat that. They DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS!"

ok duncan lets look at that , if a train driver was given amphetimins by his bosses to "improve his performance" and he crashed the train killing hundreds of people , would that be an accident ?

US pilots are given amphetimins to enable them to stay alert (or paranoid) for longer .

700 civilians were killed in fallujah , insurgents killed during the same battle was 16

depleted uranium will still be a factor in the deaths in the middle east for 20,000 years at least

when the US attacks a target they accept that there will be civilians murdered by the action , innocents will die . please dont fob me off with that colatoral damage crap , that is insulting my inteligence , it is murder , the deaths are calculated into the attack and planned for ,

so let me repeat THE US DOES TARGET CIVILIANS , WE PLAN FOR IT , INFACT WE HAVE ALREADY KILLED MANY MANY MORE INNOCENT IRAQI'S THEN DIED IN THE TRAGEDY OF SEPT 11TH MANY MANY TIMES OVER


so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing

Duncan said "Through the use of smart bombs and GPS targeting, are weapons are sophisticated enough to minimize the amount of collateral damage that may occur. Gone are the days of high altitude "precision" bombing where entire cities"

ok duncan , it seems you have been watching to much TV there , let me give you some FACTS ( funny , many people further down complain of my lack of facts , of which i have supplied many , but the facts coming back seem to be somewhat lacing in any actual information )

anyway some facts (you doubt my facts then you can check them for yourself)

you claim that wars are getting nice clean things , some stats


the 1991 gulf war (deaths)

many of the numbers are of couse estimated (we dont do body counts)

us/western military = 250
local allies =hundreds
enemy military = 50,000
civilians (direct = a few thousand
civilains (indirect)= 100,000 +

Kosovo

US/western = 0
local allies =hundreds
enemy military =1000
civilians (direct) =12,500
civilians (indirect)= 1000 +

Afghanistan


us/western = 70
local allies = few thousand
enemy military = 3600
civilians (direct) = 10,000 +
civilians (indirect) = 3200

Iraq war 2003


us/western =2000
local allies = a few thousand
enemmy military = 10,000
civilians(direct) = at least 10,000
civilians indirect=at least 120,000


all these wars happened to be against muslims and so far in our little ACCIDENTS we have killed over a QUARTER OF MILLION INNOCENT MUSLIMS , hey imagine if we wasn't being so careful ducan

now so far the muslim extremists (who we both agree are evil yes) have managed less then 10,000 deaths and less the 5000 of them were not muslims

try hard to think about this

try hard to think about how our govenment would have reacted if quarter of a million people were killed on sept 11th instead of 3000

would we accept 250,000 innocent US losses ?

not one of these people had attacked the US or planned too , they had normal lives , equal to yours and mine ,

i am sure that you dont doubt that the civilians were innocent here
so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing

as for your crap about the geneva convention dont ev en start me there , the geneva convention has a chapter devoted to dealing with terrorists , we dont seem to want to apply it there

duncan said "As to your question of when is ok to drop a bomb and kill innocent women and children? This question is typical of the weak-knee'd pacifists who cry out that all war should be ended because innocents are killed."

sorry duncan your making a huge error that those on the right always make , like most people here i am using a different name , anyone with a brain could probably work out that i am infact male , my career has been glossed over to a degree but my job does not allow me to identify myself , let me just make one thing clear , i am less of a pacifist then yourself , my work brings me into contact with alot of death , i am often a witness to many a situation that you wouldnt know of , it doesnt make the press , i support the need for war and a was a strong advocate for the first gulf war and kosovo , you should not assume that because someone doesnt agree with you then therefore they must me a what ever ,

duncan said "However, there are animals out there who don't give a crap about your pacifism and your pseudo-intellectualism."

duncan , nobody is arguing about the "animals" i argue that your point is we didnt mean to kill any of those quarter of million people who were not animals" thats a hell of an accident duncan

you ready to come back at me with any FACTS duncan ?

will get to the next reply as soon as i can , but i am not going to waste my time with

(a) people who just quote the quran , we have done that , you quote i quote , what a silly game

(b) anyone who thinks i am a muslim , if someone is too dumb to read what has already been said then they dont deserve a response

(c) any response that is just pure rhetoric and doesnt not contain any facts to challenge

 
At 8/21/2005 1:09 PM, Anonymous Cao said...

If they're facts how can you challenge them?

Toni, what is it that you're trying to accomplish in these comments other than troll?

What quarter of a million? What the deuce are you referring to? There are closed to 20,000 Iraqis who've died in Iraq since the liberation efforts, and that's nowhere near a quarter of a million. Where are your facts?

It's easy to demand facts of others but respond with sweeping generalities, but I ask you: why should we even bother to respond when you don't practice what you preach and you don't follow the directives you're making to others? That's inconsistent. That's like a parent who smokes who tells his kids not to. Actions speak louder than words, and that's like "do as I say not as I do". Doesn't work. It's hypocritical.

It's equally as dumb to continue trolling if you don't have a point to make; if you're just trying to make a pest of yourself, which you've done successfully. Are you the kid that was constantly ignored by its mother so you have to go out into the world grabbing as much negative attention as possible? There's a solution for that; it's called counseling.

Saddam himself murdered let's see; I think the figure is somewhere around 300,000 kurds...but Sadddam committed those atrocities...but as leftists say, that's ok, those were his own people, it's none of our business!

 
At 8/21/2005 1:17 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni? Here is a "fact" for you.

I think you are full of shit.

Here is another one.

Life isn't fair and sometimes innocents die.

Here is yet another one moron.

I have a brother in each branch of the military right now (save CG), and one of them is IN IRAQ. He has written me saying "We have to get so much permisiion to fire back that sometimes it comes when the enemy is already gone."

Of course he is Special Forces with Psy-Ops, so maybe his missions are a bit different.

Want another fact?

I don't BELIEVE your "FACTS" because you ahven't shown me where you get those "facts".

You are an idiot toni.....BTW, THAT is another "fact" that you can "Go check".....notice that much like you, I didn't sday where to check them either.

 
At 8/21/2005 1:23 PM, Anonymous toni said...

next up CAO

try to read cao , there is nowhere i have claimed that the terrorists dont believe they are acting in the name of islam

it is not a very well considered point ,

i watched pulp fiction in which a character quotes the bible each time he shoots someone , so what

my point is that these minority of idiots should not be seen as representing the islamic faith as a whole , should i judge the catholic faith by the priests that have sex with little boys ?

strange but most of your points i agree with CEO (strange it will seem i am sure) how we deal with terrorists is not something i am arguing , it is how we treat the islamic faith as a whole that i speak of

you do make one odd point though , (apart from the slightly sexist overtones of your words , as you now know , i am male)

CEO said"Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments"

odd , i found this site a few weeks ago via the news now link site via daily dissent (mentioned above by G i think),then went to 'in the middle of america' (due to G posting there) and from in the middle of america to here , i have no idea whom you believe i am but i can assure you this is the first site i have posted anywhere for many a month , but if it helps your pseudo understanding of me to think you know me then feel free

CAO said"I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran."

i dont support that , again you seem to ASSUME that because i dont agree with something therefore it is OK to jump to any assumptions in my head that i think toni must believe , my point is that this is not the way to change it , and many many many millions of muslims are trying to change it

take IRAN , a huge following for democracy exists there , sadly our action in Iraq has given the extremists more voice and they easily won an election that could have gone towards the progressive muslims . another cock up from us it seems

respect to you though CAO , you at least seem to have 'some' factual knowledge of middle east sadly so much of what i have read has been armchair research ,

hmm who is nitpicker ? was that a compliment ! or an insult :-)

 
At 8/21/2005 1:31 PM, Anonymous toni said...

just going to jump forward to kender

hahahaha

"I think you are full of shit."
"Here is yet another one moron"
"You are an idiot toni....."

wow , touch a nerve did i ?

good , i hope i have , i am arguing about peoples points of view and political standing , but if you have reached the point of personal insults then trust me

I TAKE THAT AS A HUGE COMPLIMENT

thankyou

of course i am just expressing my rights of free speech , if you do not wish me to do this on this site and wish to remain within your nice little club happy in a world were you all agree with each other then tell me , just once , i will find somwhere were they are able to handle critical observations , your choice ?

 
At 8/21/2005 2:06 PM, Anonymous Duncan Avatar said...

TONI SAID:

”ok duncan lets look at that , if a train driver was given amphetimins by his bosses to "improve his performance" and he crashed the train killing hundreds of people , would that be an accident ?

US pilots are given amphetimins to enable them to stay alert (or paranoid) for longer .”


Point? The use of “go” pill as they are called was a voluntary program, and while pilots were prescribed “uppers” in order for them to stay awake for longer periods of time, they pilots weren’t stoned out of their minds. I do believe that there has been only one case of where pilots have challenged that the go pills made them do the wrong thing, and that was a case of fratricide in Afghanistan. Hasn’t been repeated. And you have no proof, or as you like to refer to them as, FACTS, to show that the use of such pills has increased civilian casuaties.


“700 civilians were killed in fallujah , insurgents killed during the same battle was 16”


Show me where you got your statistics. I’d be willing to bet that of the 700 “civilians” killed in Fallujah, 659 where strangely carrying AK-47s when they were shot.


depleted uranium will still be a factor in the deaths in the middle east for 20,000 years at least


You’ve been talking to Cindy Sheehan again haven’t you.

Depleted Uranium is barely radioactive and what is emitted can be blocked by your clothing it is so weak. Go read up on it here. Here are some FACTS.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm



when the US attacks a target they accept that there will be civilians murdered by the action , innocents will die . please dont fob me off with that colatoral damage crap , that is insulting my inteligence , it is murder , the deaths are calculated into the attack and planned for ,

so let me repeat THE US DOES TARGET CIVILIANS , WE PLAN FOR IT , INFACT WE HAVE ALREADY KILLED MANY MANY MORE INNOCENT IRAQI'S THEN DIED IN THE TRAGEDY OF SEPT 11TH MANY MANY TIMES OVER


When the U.S. attacks a target, they look at the military value that can be gained from that attack, and then compare it to the undue suffering it could cause to possible non-combatants. Our military leaders then weigh it. And unfortunately, when our enemies hide amongst civilians, there are those who innocents who are hurt. However, your flawed logic is that because we estimate that so many civilians may be hurt in an attack, that we are targeting them. No sir, we are not targeting them. We are targeting the terrorist animals that live among them. When someone has chemotherapy, the goal is to kill the cancer. However good and healthy cells are sometimes killed along with the bad ones. Are we then targeting healthy cells? As far as I can tell, our invasion of Iraq had many reasons, though the last time I checked we weren’t there to kill 3,000 Iraqis in some kind of “eye for an eye” attempt.


so what is acceptable duncan , tell me , how many iraqi children should be killed by us , what is fair , seeing what they have done to us , that is nothing


Toni, as few children as we can. But tell me, how many children have to be killed by the terrorists? Hmmm. How many are blown to bits by indiscriminate car bombs? Many more than are hurt in US actions I would be willing to bet.


ok duncan , it seems you have been watching to much TV there , let me give you some FACTS ( funny , many people further down complain of my lack of facts , of which i have supplied many , but the facts coming back seem to be somewhat lacing in any actual information )

anyway some facts (you doubt my facts then you can check them for yourself)

you claim that wars are getting nice clean things , some stats


I never claimed that wars are nice clean things. I just said that we are much more careful not to harm innocents, as opposed to our enemies. And I am not going to list your laundry list of facts. Please, include where you gathered these numbers. And please tell me how the “indirect” deaths are calculated. Do you include the children killed in car bombs by terrorists as the fault of the U.S.? I bet you do.


all these wars happened to be against muslims and so far in our little ACCIDENTS we have killed over a QUARTER OF MILLION INNOCENT MUSLIMS , hey imagine if we wasn't being so careful ducan


Actually, we came to the rescue of muslims in the Balkans if I remember correctly.





as for your crap about the geneva convention dont ev en start me there , the geneva convention has a chapter devoted to dealing with terrorists , we dont seem to want to apply it there


The Geneva Conventions that we have adopted and signed says nothing about terrorists. Terrorists are lumped into the “illegal combatant” status and can be shot on the spot as such. If you had any understanding of the Geneva Conventions, you would understand that they are there to protect civilians by giving them protections and differentiating them from combatants (ie: uniforms). Your terrorist allies choose not to wear them. That makes them illegal combatants. The U.S. was wise not to ratify and sign the amended Geneva Conventions that talked about “terrorists”. We don’t need to legitimatize these criminals by giving them undue protections that jeopardize innocents. The rules for warfare were already spelled out correctly the first time.


duncan said "As to your question of when is ok to drop a bomb and kill innocent women and children? This question is typical of the weak-knee'd pacifists who cry out that all war should be ended because innocents are killed."

sorry duncan your making a huge error that those on the right always make , like most people here i am using a different name , anyone with a brain could probably work out that i am infact male , my career has been glossed over to a degree but my job does not allow me to identify myself , let me just make one thing clear , i am less of a pacifist then yourself , my work brings me into contact with alot of death , i am often a witness to many a situation that you wouldnt know of , it doesnt make the press , i support the need for war and a was a strong advocate for the first gulf war and kosovo , you should not assume that because someone doesnt agree with you then therefore they must me a what ever ,

As a service member myself, I have fought in both campaigns. I have been privy to the rules that have governed our fight over there. I know that our troops do not target civilians. I have seen the death and carried out our fallen. You must be trying to paint yourself as some sort of “black ops” kind of operative. Whatever dude. Your obvious anti-military stances paint you for what you really are. And I find it hilarious that you point out you supported Gulf War I and Kosovo, but include the casualty numbers as proof of how wrong American military strikes are.


duncan said "However, there are animals out there who don't give a crap about your pacifism and your pseudo-intellectualism."

duncan , nobody is arguing about the "animals" i argue that your point is we didnt mean to kill any of those quarter of million people who were not animals" thats a hell of an accident duncan

You are still not making any sense. I pointed out that we are fighting a war. And as such civilians are unfortunately killed. I pointed out that we do not target and intentionally kill civilians, but our enemies do. You entire commentary has been that we are wrong to be fighting this war because we are killing innocents (of course, you must be looking at the Iraqi Body Count website which counts those killed by terrorists as being indirectly cause by the U.S.). This doesn’t invalidate the war. Infact, you’d be arguing against the bombing of Germany.

It has been estimated that 400,000 Germans lost their lives due to allied bombing of Germany. However, only around 43,000 British lost their lives due to German bombing of England. That means we killed 9 times as many civilians as the Germans did do to bombing. Man, perhaps we should have rethunk that eh? I mean, Nazi Germany didn’t do anything to us. Never attacked us. Geez. I can’t believe that we didn’t have a Toni around back then to show us the error of our ways.

Battle of Dresden Facts


you ready to come back at me with any FACTS duncan ?


Are you ready to actually show me where you get yours Toni?

 
At 8/21/2005 2:31 PM, Blogger Kender said...

Toni, you didn't touch a nerve, I was simply pointing out facts.....you still have not proven your "facts.....it is indeed a fact that I think you are an idiot, a moron and full of shit.

Either way, I am going intoa bastion of leftist activity and going wine tasting and whine listening.....I will be back later to remind you that you still have no facts to back up your specious arguments and also to let you know that you are completely in the wrong and a simpleton for not understanding the need to fight jihadists......(BTW, they will never quit fighting)....

 
At 8/21/2005 2:44 PM, Anonymous toni said...

yes of course i am able to supply sources , the death count you can find by doing a search through the "United states central command" and their respected authorised links , of course we dont do body counts so you have to search multible documents to aquire your information and none of the documents are called "how many we killed" lol , you have to READ THEM the facts are there and they are our facts , compiled by our government !

incase you dont know the address is

HTTP://www.centcom.mil/ and some of the information you will have to aquire from the authorised and accepted military links from that site

i do not supply facts without being able to justify them , do you ?

but more generally the quality of the debate seems to be droping a level or two and i wish not to out stay my welcome , this is AOW's site and whatever else he/she says i do understand that he/she respects freedom of speech and i have had mine so no complaints from me on that point

i am never going to reach agreement with you people but please bare in mind for example that the majority of the US now believes bush was wrong in invading iraq etc , you guys stick together and have the odd mild disagrement i am sure , but you dont often get the flip side of your views that are equally held in at least equal numbers to yourselves with at least equal factual knowledge and of course at least equal rhetoric

so , i have made my point and with the acception of the word fascist , (which i define as the dictionary does , as a far right winged form of nationalism , but others that dont know that might think i am saying something other then that and feel offended by the word then i am sorry for your mis-understanding ) i dont believe i have directly personally insulted someone anymore then someone has upset me by not knowing i was dyslexic , how could they know )

when insults start to come my way i see that as a clear sign that individual is running out of facts to throw back at me , i am sure "some" of you still have plenty of facts i dont deny that

so . i will stop posting unless the owner of this site specificaly states that they are happy for me to keep doing so

and if that doesnt happen then i wish you all luck and i feel no offence to any of you , least of all those that insulted me ,



Au revoir
À plus tard

 
At 8/21/2005 3:07 PM, Anonymous Duncan Avatar said...

Interesting. I will go to centcom's site and see what I can find and see if I come up with the same "numbers" that you do.

I have not dropped to any "level" in my debate with you. I brought up my points and you did not address them. You did give me an initial source for your numbers, though not quite specfic enough for me to go right to them, so for now I must did around to find what you say exists. And like I pointed out above, you glossed over any points I had made and are now making a hasty retreat back into the vast expanse of the blogosphere. When you feel up to it, come back, but come back with a rational argument backed up by accessable facts.

 
At 8/21/2005 3:14 PM, Anonymous toni said...

duncan , please , there is one of me and with all respect it is me that has come into the lions den , try posting your views as G says in daily dissent and see how far you get ?

my point about the quality of debate dropping is NOT aimed at you , your reply to my last answer top you deserves a detailed response and contains a serious viewpoint , my point is about a general drop in standard and if any single person takes offense i would advise them to address the paranioa

i am still here , and if i continue there are many many points i would address in posts above your last and like i say i am willing to respond to any point

i am holding here as i say until i am confirmed as welcome by AOW otherwise the debate will just drop to , "get lost" "why are you here" blah blah blah ,

i am upto it now , and anytime

and no i am not exactly what you would call "black ops" my job is very specialised and does not involve me personally shooting anyone but thats another point

 
At 8/21/2005 4:08 PM, Blogger Morg said...

Toni,

Well it seems like you and I have similar jobs, and we should be seeing the same sort of things. My clearance level keeps me from going into detail, so you are going to have to trust me.

The funny thing is that during the assault of Fallujah I dont remeber anything like the accounts that you have. Honestly, you were doing better when you were just sympathizing with Islam, Hell you had be ALMOST buying into some of it. But then you had to screw up a good debate with lies. Yes I can say you lied, you were trying to empower Islam by way of defaming the US. Had there been a shred of truth I may have thought that you honestly believed that Islam was peaceful, but now I see that you just hate America because you have to make up numbers. If you ever have "experienced" anything on the front I can almost guarantee that I have seen the same things.

Then you argue that for every violent point in the Kuran, there is a peaceful one. So which point is a muslim supposed to follow? If a Muslim chooses the violent path, then he is acting on grounds of his religion right?

Then you lost all credibility when you brought up old testament stoning and tried to some how tie it into the NEW TESTAMENT world that we live in. The old testament is historical. It is how people lived prior to Christ. I feel weird telling you this since you claimed that you kenw so much about all the religions but, people in the Old Testament were not Christians. There was no such thing as a Christian until around 1 AD (The Year of the King)

Oh well you had me going for a while.

 
At 8/21/2005 4:12 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
You didn't respond to my comment. So, I'll repeat it:

I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?

Are you having trouble seeing things you don't want to see?

Islamofascism reigns supreme in several Muslim countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. It has made major inroads in countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Niger, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, etc. It is not uncommon to have heads of depts. at Al-Azhar University accuse "Jews" of masterminding 9/11. It is not uncommon for state-controlled media in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt to broadcast these kinds of conspiracy theories, along with calls for "death to the Jews" and also Blood Libels against Jews.

Are you familiar with this?

Neither America nor Israel do anything in league with that kind of hatred. Our societies are most definately morally superior to those societies.

Therefore, I want us to win the War. I do not want our world to be like theirs. I want their world to be more like ours. I hope they can establish democracy and a human rights based constitution, and retain their culture. I hope that they can purge the Islamofascists from their socities.

Are you aware that a poll was done recently which showed that fully 99% of Lebanese people don't like Jews?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/100-of-lebanese-say-they-have-very.html

Or, that 24% of British Muslims "feel sympathy" for the motives of the terrorists?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslims-can-expect-increasing-distrust_25.html

That Mein Kampf is a bestseller in Turkey?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/two-top-turkish-bestsellers-mein-kampf.html

The pproblem of Islamofascism is not a small problem. It is very widespread, unfortunately.

 
At 8/21/2005 4:29 PM, Blogger Caoilfhionn said...

Still trying to publish a rebuttal here.

next up CAO

What is this, a ball game? Actually, I think you're the one on the hot seat, and you haven't proven yourself to be a very worth opponent.

 
At 8/21/2005 4:30 PM, Blogger Caoilfhionn said...

try to read cao , there is nowhere i have claimed that the terrorists dont believe they are acting in the name of islam

Try to hold onto your condescension, ok? I haven't seen you prove any of your points, and I haven't seen you live up to the standards by which you are holding us accountable. Try walking the walk instead of talking the talk and I'll have more respect for you.

it is not a very well considered point , i watched pulp fiction in which a character quotes the bible each time he shoots someone , so what

That's a really ignorant statement right there. I don't know what's worse; that you thought it, or that you wrote it and expected me to take it seriously. Well-considered from what point of view? We’re talking about Saddam murdering millions of kurds, millions of each ethnic and religious group in his country—by horrible torture like putting people feet first in plastic shredding machines to hear their screams for as long as possible, and you refer me to a MOVIE as your example of how Christians are nasty people, moral equivalents to Islamists? Are you nuts?

my point is that these minority of idiots should not be seen as representing the islamic faith as a whole , should i judge the catholic faith by the priests that have sex with little boys ?

Go talk to Ali Sina at Faith Freedom.org and the other ex-muslims there who can tell you what Islam and living in Iran under sharia law is REALLY like. Or watch Theo Van Gogh’s movie, “Submission”, for which he was killed. Islamists don’t want the truth about Islam coming out, because if it did and people became educated about it, there wouldn’t be any. They are trying to build a bridge to the 7th century. That's a difficult thing to do when the people have access to books and information.

That's why Iran recently threw bloggerse in jail; that's why there are some really tough things going on there and people are being tortured by the regime and are being put to death.

strange but most of your points i agree with CEO (strange it will seem i am sure) how we deal with terrorists is not something i am arguing , it is how we treat the islamic faith as a whole that i speak of

How is that we’re “treating the Islamic faith as a whole”?

you do make one odd point though , (apart from the slightly sexist overtones of your words , as you now know , i am male)

CEO said"Toni hasn't changed her tune since she was singing the praises of socialism over at my place and eventually was banned. She has tremendous energy for her arguments"


You spell you name like a girl and your little “i”s look like a 6th grade girl who uses a purple pen and draws hearts on the small “I’s.

odd , i found this site a few weeks ago via the news now link site via daily dissent (mentioned above by G i think),then went to 'in the middle of america' (due to G posting there) and from in the middle of america to here , i have no idea whom you believe i am but i can assure you this is the first site i have posted anywhere for many a month , but if it helps your pseudo understanding of me to think you know me then feel free

Sorry, the girl’s name was “Tomi”. I was mistaken. Your pseudo intellectualism isn't getting very far, Toni. Your points are rather weak, your fact finding and evidence even moreso.

CAO said"I guess liberals who believe in women's rights take don't mind Islamic regimes' public beatings of women, and the right of men to beat their wives sanctioned by the Qu'ran."

i dont support that , again you seem to ASSUME that because i dont agree with something therefore it is OK to jump to any assumptions in my head that i think toni must believe , my point is that this is not the way to change it , and many many many millions of muslims are trying to change it


But you do lament their deaths, and you are a big supporter of Islam in that you’re coming here defending it with not much of a strategy. Do you know any muslims, and if you do, where are they? Could it be you don't know any? After all, the Qu'ran says not to befriend the unbelievers because then you're considered an apostate or an infidel to other muslims. Perhaps you should study up on it a little more.

take IRAN , a huge following for democracy exists there , sadly our action in Iraq has given the extremists more voice and they easily won an election that could have gone towards the progressive muslims . another cock up from us it seems

Our action in Iraq had nothing to do with the extremists in Iran. Actually, when the Shah fled Iran for fear of his life, the Ayatollah Khomeini started his reign of terror, and that’s when the mullahs took over. That was in the ‘70’s. Is that when you were born? You don’t seem to have much of a recollection of historical fact that has bearing on the situation in Iraq or the Middle East in general. They won an election because it was a rigged election. It didn't matter who went to the polls, and a lot of people knew that, and stayed home. As I said, the mullahs are in control. Go educate yourself at Faith Freedom.org. There are a lot of former muslim Iranians who post articles there.

respect to you though CAO , you at least seem to have 'some' factual knowledge of middle east sadly so much of what i have read has been armchair research ,

Thank you for mentioning it. I like to think I have some insight into--not only the mentality--but the Qu'ranic basis for terrorism, and understanding why the majority of muslims remain silent. It could have something to do with--knowing an Arab Christian who fled Egypt with his family for American freedom instead of sharia law, knowing Iranians who are former muslims, etc.. They have educated me, delighted that I'm interested.

hmm who is nitpicker ? was that a compliment ! or an insult :-)

Nitpicker was a troll that was a pain in the ass. You are much more intelligent, and don’t get off on pissing people off the way he did.

 
At 8/21/2005 5:01 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
You said "i am holding here as i say until i am confirmed as welcome by AOW otherwise the debate will just drop..."

I've been busy, and this is the first chance I've had to respond here today (although, off and on, I've glanced at a few comments which popped into my inbox). I want you to know that I've not been stonewalling here. Also, I will admit that I haven't read all the comments thoroughly, but I did notice a later one of yours in my inbox; I've quoted from your comment in the first paragraph of this comment of mine.

As I've said before, I support the right of free speech, especially in a discussion forum. Of course, I don't have unlimited time to respond. I hope that you understand and respect that limitation.

Another gender clarification, just for the record. I am female. The name "AOW" doesn't make that clear, of course. And "Toni," with an "i" is usually female, so I can understand the confusion on that matter.

Toni, I doubt that anything will be resolved in the discussion, but I have no problem with your making comments as long as you understand that I'm not hovering over this blog, night and day. Others' schedules may allow for more interaction.

And you are correct in that many--left, right, and in between--have strong convictions.

PS: Thank you for holding until I could get back to you.

 
At 8/21/2005 5:09 PM, Anonymous toni said...

more interesting points i note , plenty worthy of a response ,a few not,

anyone pointing out i have not dealt with there question you will probably find that i have ONLY got as far as replying to post number 31 ! apart from a quick trip to kendal ,

my next reply would be the first sensible post after 31 , so far this makes 81 posts , give me a chance !!

a general idea would proabably help , do YOU think i am a pest etc etc ? if so , like i say , i WILL NOT waste my time

do you want a debate with someone who comes from a different camp then you ? , or do you just want a cosy friendly world full of folks that are like minded ?

i enjoy the debate , i enjoy having so many people wishing to question what i say , i have no wish to be on some site where everyone agrees with me of which there are thousands , i am NOT here to just stir trouble , these really are my views , and as am sure you know there are also thousands of sites like this , so if this one doesnt want me , then i will be off

 
At 8/21/2005 5:17 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
You said, "i am NOT here to just stir trouble , these really are my views..."

I happen to teach policy debate, so if I decide things are out of hand and decide that you are "a pest" (your term, not mine), I'll say so as the "judge"; and we will, at that point, cut off discussion with as few hard feelings as possible.

Is that fair to your way of thinking?

 
At 8/21/2005 5:22 PM, Anonymous toni said...

ok AOW , thankyou for your reply and thankyou for your clarification , i agree toni probably sounds female , i just picked it at random

, it was me that said i would reply to each and every post , and it is me that is fortunate enough at this brief time to have enough time to monitor this and a few other sites , i apreciate that the real world does not normally allow us such a right .. and if i wanted constant response i would just set up my own blog , i keep responding because others do , and in the main you seem to have a respectful bunch of readers ,

to reply to each post will become a boring experience , and like i said as well there is little to be gained by either side in the end , views will not change

so if it is ok with you all , i will stop replying to ALL the posts now , but PLEASE (this is to everybody) if you really believe in your heart that i have

(a) ignored your question
(b) not answered that crucial point you believe you have that would destroy my argument in a second .etc
(c) run away
(d) run out of answers
(e) anything else

then i am still checking this post and any "short and simple" points below this answer i will answer directly or any points if you request

if you really insist that this "pest" ,"idiot" , "moron" etc should reply to every single point then fine by me , just ask

either way , my thanks (genuine) goto AOW for allowing and respecting free speech ,

and my respect to you all

 
At 8/21/2005 5:25 PM, Anonymous toni said...

fine by me :-)

to my mind , i have been respectful to all and it should be obvious i do not do this for a joke .

however , on the flip side , i also have better things to do then monitor a blog , so the intensity of my replies could not continue as is anyway

thanks

 
At 8/21/2005 5:34 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Anonymous,
Just to let you know that I found the link you posted in these many comments.

Thanks!

 
At 8/21/2005 5:51 PM, Blogger Esther said...

Toni,

You don't have to respond to mine, no worries. Read it, but that's all I ask of you. I do agree that resorting to personal attacks is uncool. I for one am bored if everyone is always agreeing all the time....look how many comments we get when we actually have different viewpoints. It makes for interesting discussion and isn't that what we all would like to have? Calm, reasoned discussion...

All I ask is if you quote statistics or info that may seem hard to believe, that you give us a link to check it out for ourselves. If not, I'm inclined not to believe the info.

As long as we (the general "we") are respectful of each other, perhaps we can all learn something.

 
At 8/21/2005 6:24 PM, Anonymous toni said...

a few random answers for fun...

to the person who claimed my numbers for fallujah were in correct , i will not post a link here but , goto independant clearing house web site , goto the videos on the left , click the one that says fallujah , it was fimed by our armed forces

i won't link it due to the images being soooo graphic , but are you REAllY telling me what ? that the isurgents ran into the town and quickly replaced all those mutalated terrorists with little old ladies and children , the dressed up in US uniforms and filmed it ? thats the only explantion i can find , you tell me

i was in fallujah aprox 8 weeks after the event , i do NOT hate the US , how weird

this idea of muslims chearing in the street is over played , yes a few did , but i also remember a lot of MY friends showing glee when we shot down an iranian passenger plane , yes they were idiots , how many MILLIONS of muslims , how many did you see enjoying it ?

saddam hussien condemmed the attacks
syria supplied us with most of our key intelligence
the northen allience did 95% of the work against the taliban
saudi arabia allowed us to use there land , pakistan have gone hunting for us , the list is endless of full and complete support from countries that are without doubt muslim ,

and of course there is the not very nice muslim regimes such as uzbekistan who we befriend becaause it suits us

as for my point on israeli atrocaties , i used one single example , i am sorry ! , like many countries i could have used hundreds , infact you will find that israel has been brought to the UN security council a lot more times then any muslim country , including iraq and if was not for the veto roll of the UN then israel would have the longest list of crimes of any country in the UN , but MY fight is not with israel, i respect israels right to exist , i respect israels right to defend itself , and israel is a whole different subject all together that gets people over heated , so my mention of the palastinian boy was ment a small 'hint' rather then pushing the debate towards this pro/agaisnt israel thing , were we would all disagree little

someone said "our actions in iraq have nothing to do with iran "

eek , the south of iraq is a shia powerbase , Iran is mainly a shia powerbase , the British warned us NOT to allow the shia to gain control of iraq as this would create a shia mass that crosses national border , which would weaken the two countries control over the populus , infact if you check you will find that israel advised us the same.

the depleted uranium deniel .. the US representives are reporting a 1200% increase in childhood cancer in iraq due to DU , maybe if we let the cancer see your web link it will realise that it is wrong and stop killing them

someone asked what the indirect deaths ment , it is simple

let me give you an example from our side , if you are shot in iraq and they get you out of the country to the hospital in germany , then you die , you didnt die in iraq , so therefore you are not included in the numbers

with tie civilians , if an explosion hits say a tv station and a house across the street gets knocked down by the blast .. technically it is the bricks from the house that killed you not the bomb (indirect)

it is only direct if they can find shrapnel or bullets etc inside you , if you get killed by something that was secondary to the actual explosive , then it is indirect

someone asked if all the deaths included the attacks by the insurgents , yes they do , but before you respond , you tell me of a SINGLE terrorist attack in iraq before we took the fight there ? you tell me of a single terrorist in iraq (yes zarqawi was there he arrived in jan 2003 for the war) so why should those innocents not be claimed as US indirect deaths , we took it there .. do remind me why ? ,

dont forget that saddam hussein sent his envoy to london and he met with a representive of monsiour wolferwitz to agree to hold UNITED NATION monitored elections within 2 years (2004) and to step down , we told him to bog off

anyway .. just a few replies to a few randon questions , dont assume anythin by what i havnt answered . just being courtous enough to reply to a few points people asked of me

 
At 8/21/2005 6:28 PM, Anonymous toni said...

thankyou esther , all points noted and agreed with :-) and yes it is much better to have a respectull fight , i am sure AOW is verp popular anyway , but 88 comments does say that having "an enemy in the camp" does widen the debat

 
At 8/21/2005 7:10 PM, Anonymous toni said...

oh and esther , seing as you were so kind i ahve searched back and looked at your reply , again i have picked one at random , you claim my "fact" that bechtel built a dual use in 1988 was false , it is not my job to find every single fact to prove my point but i will provide you wilt more then enough checkable facts to prove it yourself

Bechtel not only disregarded Iraq’s chemical warfare atrocities, it may have helped create them.

Bechtel signed a 1988 contract to manage the engineering and construction of a petrochemical plant nearBaghdad.

Many have worried that Iraq has used the plant to develop chemical weapons. Consider the following startling findings:

Bechtel signed a contract to consult in the construction of a petrochemical complex (PC-2)south of Baghdad, just four months after the Hussein government infamously “gassed the Kurds” with mustardgas.

The Bechtel design involved “dual-use” technology. According to Middle East Defense News, “a keyfeature of the PC-2 project was the plan to manufacture ethylene oxide, a precursor chemical that is easily converted to thyodiglycol, which is used in one step to make mustard gas.”

When UN weapons inspectors arrived in 1991, they declared that the industrial complex including PC-2 was a major part of the “smoking gun”proving Iraq was pursuing a “Weapons of Mass Destruction” (WMD) program

there is more then enough there for you to find a fault with if you wish ..

the information comes from reuters database and was picked up by many US and world wide newspapers

the problem with supplying links is someone will always find fault , i present facts with details , and if someone questions such a fact then i will point them to where they too can see these 'facts'

of course i dodnt work for bechtel , i didnt build the factory , so i cant prove it beyond doubt but i note the Bechtel did not even bother to deny its dual use until 1991

 
At 8/21/2005 7:11 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Toni

Seriously get a clue .

Unlike the rest I do not care about theology. I care about historical fact generated by a hateful theology. I guess Jews, assorted Christians, Hindus , Sikhs,Bhudhists, Zoroastrians, Yezidi , Bhai and others are all picking on a peaceful religion.
The fact that all are engaged in prior oad or present conflict with Islam counts for nothing.

Assyrian Christians, Jews and Hidus lived peacably until guess who shows up. The presense of Jews and Christians with no incedents proves that Hinduism was far more peaceful. Hinduism turns agressive when what religion invaded its space.

Do you want to talk about Asyrians,
Armenians, Copts , Maronites, Zoroastrians ? You have zero clue about a Jim Crow culture, that is still on land it conquered and crying about fake indigenous people. I was born in Brooklyn and have as much of a connection with the Canarsie Indians as the Arabs do with the Palestinians. If you think this is a joke read the PLO charter. I know you are slow of mind so get back to us after you read scores of references to Arab unity and Palestinian Arabs.

Do not ever hector anyone here about Nazis. I have plenty of family that survived and they know
bigotry when they see it.

 
At 8/21/2005 7:12 PM, Anonymous GM Roper said...

I find myself less concerned about what the Koran may or may not say and more concerned about the radical muslim ACTIONS. Toni, listen up, they will not hesitate to kill you and yours unless you submit. They give no quarter to others, even those of thier own faith. These are not people that can be dismissed as mere terrorists. They have one goal in mind, the re-establishment of the Caliphate. Learn what that means.

 
At 8/21/2005 7:31 PM, Anonymous toni said...

Beakerlin

you think you are the only person who knows people from the horror of 1939-45 , i speak the views of many jewish friends that actually lived through it to , you wish to deny there right just because you say so ,

there are some people who are just plain prejudice , the can justify slavery , they can justify western world domanance , and they can pick and choose facts to there liking , you just sound verging on racist to me i wont say you are because i dont know you , but the last time i head such a strong view the person speaking was wearing a sheet on his head

and gm roper , yes i agree , they would kill me , yes i agree it has nothing to do with what it does or does not say in the quran , hey i want them out the way as much as you , but the diference is that they will NEVER listen to a US gun , they will never listen to me or you or the pope or whatever

there really is only ONE way to win , support the moderates ,

in some countries , (UK,france,germany) once an al-qaeda operative is jailed (as they damn well should be) then the high ranking muslims start paying them visits to explain over and over and over to these idiots that they are wrong , that the quran does not say they should do this , that they are mis -reading there holy book , that they are a disgrace to islam , you dont hear about it , it is not on the news , but the battle is takin place between the majority moderate and the minority extremists , it may not be all we want but it is action , and if we turn our backs on them , and the hundreds of millions of peacefull muslims turn to the extremists instead of us then we have got problems ,

of course they could do better , of course the main stream media could put out what they say more often as well , but the essense is , these people need OUR help , if you treat them all as one nasty bunch of evil terrorists to be then what hope do they have , these people genuinly want to get terrorism out of islam and they are not being helped by people jumping on every single islamic person/country/quote etc

and i do note that you dont all feel that it is all islam that is a fault , i speak to those that do

 
At 8/21/2005 8:00 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Hey Toni you dumba$$$

Unlike you I am a Jew so don't you go lecturing me about how my people feel about anything. We speak rather eloquently for ourselves and do not need morons like you to talk in our name.

Hey Dumba$$$ you are not suposed to reveal if you are a goverment employee with a security clearance even in an cyberspace blog. Talk to the geniuses in human resources.
You are not even to identify yourself unless asked directly by law enforcement . Guess the rules don't apply to you.

You can not touch the facts as presented so you cry racist. Try responding to the facts 1300 years of colonialism Jim Crowe slavery and Genocide are facts not opinions. The fact that they do not fit into your Cumbaya internationalist idiocy is your problem.

Excuse me as a Joooo when I see anti semitism it is exclusively from the left. FYI you are talking to an anti communist liberal Republican.

 
At 8/21/2005 8:14 PM, Anonymous toni said...

"Unlike you I am a Jew so don't you go lecturing me about how my people feel about anything. We speak rather eloquently for ourselves and do not need morons like you to talk in our name."

so is my wife . err dumbass

"Hey Dumba$$$ you are not suposed to reveal if you are a goverment employee with a security clearance even in an cyberspace blog. Talk to the geniuses in human resources.
You are not even to identify yourself unless asked directly by law enforcement . Guess the rules don't apply to you"

you assume i am a govenment employee , i am not , they hire me , as do other governments , hey dumbass

"You can not touch the facts as presented so you cry racist. Try responding to the facts 1300 years of colonialism Jim Crowe slavery and Genocide are facts not opinions. The fact that they do not fit into your Cumbaya internationalist idiocy is your problem"

"The mass murder of Muslims by Christians in Kosovo"

By the late 10th century, Europe and the Middle East were divided into Christian and Muslim spheres of influence. Christian pilgrims from Europe regularly visited Muslim-controlled Jerusalem in reasonable safety. Such pilgrimages were very popular. The were believed to be one of the major acts by which a person could reduce their exposure to the tortures of purgatory after their death.

By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire: The Emperor/Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome had mutually excommunicated each other. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.

Emperor Alexius asked Pope Urban II for assistance. On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." 1 The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust." Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslim were also slaughtered without mercy. "


as you see "dumbass" the christians also wanted to wipe out the jews .. or tell me was it a muslim that killed jesus christ ?

any more little facts you got i cant handle ? (giggle)

 
At 8/21/2005 8:33 PM, Anonymous toni said...

ps i look forward to your reply , i find it amazing you dont actually seem to know your own history , my wife laughed when she read your reply and suggested without a seconds hesitation what is called the "first holocaust" commited by christians agaisnt jews , quite a bit of history to miss , as for never knowing any far right people that have been anti semitic.. well that shows your age

learn something

Hitler was far right wing , the Nazis were far right wing , fascism is right wing .. hey and you call me the dumbass

 
At 8/21/2005 10:05 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Hey Dumba$$

Lets take this one slowly as you are clearly brain impaired. You have not adressed the universiality of the Islamic brutality. Joooos, Christians , Bhudists , Hindoooooos, Zoroastrians all just happen to have the same expeience. Let me guess they are all lying to defame the religion of peace and telling the exact same lie.

I am glad you married a Jewish woman as there is a 100% chance your kids will be smarter then you.

Oh by the way nimrod Muslims , Arabs and Pseudostinians are non racial categories. Open a dictionary when you aren't playing D&D.

You want to cling to the myth of Islamic tolerance tell that to the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks. Tell it to the Copts , Syrian and Pakistani Christians fleeing for their lives.

Here we go again the Nazis were left wing. Ethnic cleansing colectivzation and remember the term National socialist.Speaking of progressives who put Muslims on Cattle cars and sent them to die in a frozen wasteland. In your defense the progressives butchered Balts, Poles etc. What a great concept using starvation as a government tool.

Fact : No Holocaust survivor I ever met and I spoken with Hundreds
ever blamed Christianity. The Nazis were not especialy Christian and you leave out the Muslim SS divisions and the role of the Grand Mufti.

You can also find the same fake indigenous people working as contract killers of Indians in Nicaragua pick up the Black Book of Communism.

Anwser the basic question all these divergent cultures have the exact same experience. Do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge ? Do not talk about Christianity in your response. Muslims are still on land they colonized and are opressing real indigenous people including Joooos , Copts, Assyrians, Hindu etc. These people were there long before the merry local Jihadist came over and imposed Jim Crowe , Slavery, Ethnocide and Genocide. FYI the Ottomans rounded up the Jews of Tel Aviv for slaughter as well but a PR offensive spared them. Stalin died shortly before he could send the Joooos to Siberia.

 
At 8/21/2005 10:21 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

One more thing you historical illiterate. Were the Jooooos ethnically cleansed in the Arabian Penisula before the Crusades. Duhhh
seems like that Holocaust or massacre preceeded the Crusades.

Now take my advice start reading Fred Issac, Bat Yeor , Robert Spencer , Serge Trifkofic and get a clue. Still haven't read the PLO charter yet are you learning impaired.

Lets see Jooos, Russians, Indians , Philipinos, Black Sudanese, Christians in the ME , Serbs, Bhudists, Communists, Chinese all have problems with what group. Always cue the Jeapordy music. But it everybody else's fault . 1300 years of history you still have not adressed. How was Islam spread ? Does the words ethnocide , genocide
and Jim Crowe mean anything to you.
Who were the Jannisaries ? Jeapordy music.

You have not got a clue. FYI where is your blog. Wait you don't have one. Why does the left run closed and censored blogs and I can not find a Conservative blog that is censored.

Does your wife muzzle you in public ? She should to save herself embarassment.

 
At 8/21/2005 11:50 PM, Anonymous toni said...

hehehehe your funny , i like you

"Lets take this one slowly as you are clearly brain impaired. You have not adressed the universiality of the Islamic brutality. Joooos, Christians , Bhudists , Hindoooooos, Zoroastrians all just happen to have the same expeience. Let me guess they are all lying to defame the religion of peace and telling the exact same lie"


i never said anyone was lying but feel free to make up anything you want that you think that i think !

i pointed out the ethnic cleansing of jews carried out by christians

instead of blarring out with both barrels try using those lovely eyes and read what someone else has wrote , ponder it , then respond to it , it is called dialogue , sadly you seem to have got a standard rant you pour out to anyone that will listen

all of your responses so far seem to have been purely about what you think , instead of actually reading what i put as the others did then creating a response based on my content , sadly the conversation you are having just happens to be with yourself ,

we can all do that my fluffy little friend :-)

do you want to talk about diego garcia ?

do you want to talk about slavery ?

do you want to talk about penquins with cute furry hats ?

if you actually already know the answers to the questions that i will give before i even read the response then trust me , you dont need me

you said "Here we go again the Nazis were left wing. Ethnic cleansing colectivzation and remember the term National socialist.Speaking of progressives who put Muslims on Cattle cars and sent them to die in a frozen wasteland. In your defense the progressives butchered Balts, Poles etc. What a great concept using starvation as a government tool."

hahahahahaha , that is the best joke i have heard all day , pleaaaase just for me , go look in that dictionary you qoute so much . i know that it was called national socialism , alas the only connection to socialism is the word ,

lets try the first dictionary i find online

The noun fascist has one meaning:

Meaning #1: an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views


what a suprise , it is right wing

like any political scale it goes full circle and in fact fascim on the far right ,and communism on the far left are not extremes really but are almost joining each other in many ways , of course you cant educate me , i am of slow brain so i will be as quick as i can phoning the worlds dictionaries to inform them of their error and that you of course are right

what concerns me most about your good self is that even though you have already made many assumptions that you have already found to be wrong , that doesnt stop you one bit , you keep on holding on to the rope , ignoring the failing of you powers of guestimation and coming back anyway


again you said "Fact : No Holocaust survivor I ever met and I spoken with Hundreds
ever blamed Christianity."

funny , i never blaimed christanity either , hmmm you must have imagined that i did , i wonder where these voices come from . but feel free to point out where i did ? ,

what i talked of happened in 1095-NOV-27 , now do tell me if you know anyone alive from 1095 , because if you do then we have discovered the reason for your super duper brain power !

"You can also find the same fake indigenous people working as contract killers of Indians in Nicaragua pick up the Black Book of Communism"

am sure you can dear :-)

you said " Do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge ?"

sure , how much ?

you said "Do not talk about Christianity in your response"

erm ok so thats jews and christians i can't talk about now then .... hmmm

you said "these people were there long before the merry local Jihadist came over and imposed Jim Crowe , Slavery, Ethnocide and Genocide"

ah i see , so it was the muslims that were responsible for slavery , damn . better ring all the high schools too , those idiots are teaching it wrong , tch



you said "take my advice start reading Fred Issac, Bat Yeor , Robert Spencer , Serge Trifkofic and get a clue. Still haven't read the PLO charter yet are you learning impaired."


sadly i have already read the PLO charter , if i would have known it had been in your reading list , i would have probably given it a miss , but it is to late now

you said "You have not got a clue." maybe so but i have got a dictionary , want to swap ? :-)

you said in another of your most talented assumptions "why does the left run closed and censored blogs and I can not find a Conservative blog that is censored."

try www.dailydissent.org they will be more then happy to take your call , though i do hope you brush up a little when you go in

now see , not a single insult needed , wow isnt that clever , us growns up do that kind of thing all the time

i have no desire to go somewhere else , but alas if my being here results in the kind of loving ,caring friendly debate that you yourself offer then i should go and find some one who can make there point with a little bit more intelligence , a lot more respect and probably a dash more maturity ,


of course , maybe there is scientific value in your "Does your wife muzzle you in public ? " comment , but i am probably just tooooooo dumb to see it . but it seems we got through a good 80 odd comments without anyone else needing to highlight the amount of insults over content that they can allow us to admire , but you are of course very very smart

dont worry AOW , i did not respond with such insults and i have no desire to create this kind of level of "mature debate" so i will cease responding

maybe it is better if you all just sit here and agree

respect to you all , especially you Beaky :-)

 
At 8/22/2005 12:27 AM, Blogger beakerkin said...

DumbA$$ it is Bakerkin

You still have not anwered the basic question. How does such a varried group have the exact same negative experience of ethnocide genocide, slavery forced conversions and colonialism . You still have no answer. Nor do you have a response to the ethnic cleansing of Mohammed himself. Nor have you explained the spread of the religion of submission.

Hey Nimrod Fascism was the Italian term for Socialism which is still decidedly left wing.

Colectivization, Central planning
and youth camps are all typical of left wing . However lets add up the dead caused by Nazism and Communism on a balace sheet Chinas 65 million alone outdoes the Nazis.

Fact the Eastern (Islamic) slave trade was responsible for moredeath and lasted longer then the Western Slave trade. Nor have we got into the Europeans abducted by the merry men of Jihad.

Fact abololition was an almost entirely Christian movement with a few Jew sprinkled in. The end of slavery was a largely Christian acheivement. Add te Great Divide by Alvin Schmidtt to your reading list.

Next time you go to Mecca advertise that you have a Joooish wife. FYI my brother is a military officer and his story does not match yours. My brother described it as an oppressive apartheid cesspool. My freinds in NYC Indians who lived there and are Christians described the same thing. Thus I suspect you got the guided tour. My Christian Indian friends spent years and probably have just a tad more insight.

You still haven't spoken to Copts, Maronite , Armenians, Indoneasian Christians , Zoroastrians, Bhai or Hindus. Funny I see them all in NYC and they say the same thing read the Koran. They have a different take on Islam then you.
The nerve of those people dissagreeing with the left PC version of Islam. You are the one in need of an education.

The Christians and other minorities are running for their lives. Yet all we hear from you is raionalizations. Beheadings and smacking planes into office buildings are lifestyle choices.
Those kids in Beslan were shot in the back by martians , blame Ray Walston. Do you want to discuss who blew up the WTC twice. I was there and while we are at it who held an anti semitic protest in Union Square Park and blamed the Jooos for 9-11 . The buildings were still burning and the stench of death lingered and the left blamed the Joooooos and I was there. Can we say modern Blood Libel ?

Seriously you need to read something besides Mother Jones and High Times

 
At 8/22/2005 12:56 AM, Anonymous civil truth said...

Toni, I hope you're still monitoring this post. It should be clear to both sides of this debate that some Muslims support terrorism and violence and other Muslims advocate non-violent means of spreading their faith. Both arms of Islam can find verses from the Koran to support their positions, so I see no value in further debating the intent of the Koran.

I also hear both sides agreeing that they opposing Muslim terrorists and their supporters and that the U.S. has a right to defend itself against attack and to try to prevent terrorists from being able to injure the U.S. and other people.

The clear disagreement is over 1) Whether Islam is inherently a religion of violence against unbelievers with the aim of worldwide conquest by force of arms; and 2)What strategy and tactics should we employ to oppose the aims of the Islamists-terrorists. 3)A complicating factor is disagreement over the integrity of the U.S. and its motives and actions; and the "facts" here are also in dispute. I will not address this third point at this time.

To cut through the Gordian knot of 1) we need to focus on the words and actions of the practitioners of Islam rather than try to decipher the "essential nature" of Islam in the abstract. One thing that we all should do is to read translations of what Muslims are saying to each other in Arabic, and along that line I would suggest people look up the MEMRI website, which carries English translations of a multitude of public pronouncements. I think one will find that there is diversity of opinion.

By the same token, Muslims in America should be judged by what they say and do, and key tests are (a) where their money goes in terms of the Muslim charities they support and the programs of these charities; (b) what teachings and values are being preached in the mosques; (c) what actions are taken locally to oppose jihad and keep their youth from going abroad to be trained in that way; d) clear support of the U.S. Constitution rather than theocracy under Sharia.

As for 2), I would like to think that we could both ally ourselves with peaceful Muslims as well as resist militarily the jihadists that have declared war on the U.S. and the West. There is clear disagreement as to the balance between military/alliance and the methods of war. I think it is muddled thinking to believe that alliance alone will suffice, and there is also a lot of wishful thinking about defining "moderate Islam". Biolerplate pronouncements alone don't make one a moderate; actions must conform.

Finally, I think we need to hold everyone accountable for their actions; perceived injustice does not justify evil actions (attacking civilians, mass and indiscriminate murder), and we need to stop rationalizing evil and engaging in the game of deciding who is the bigger victim. It is especially pointless to go back multiple generations. We all can chose how to respond to perceived injustice, whether by performing further evil or choosing another path. Lawfully constituted nations do have different rules than individuals.

I'll stop here for the moment.

 
At 8/22/2005 12:56 AM, Anonymous toni said...

much better , calming that potty mouth i see , well done

you said "You still have not anwered the basic question. How does such a varried group have the exact same negative experience"

i dont know hmm lets see , maybe they share common exsperiences eh ..

let me ask you a question

what do the people of all these countries think

1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: saddam part 1
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
and of course irAq today

and guess what friend my list is bigger then yours (wow eh) these are all countries that we have either directly (ie military) or indirectly (the CIA) have decided to stick our cute little toes into and mess with , of course some where valid , of course most were not , guess what , people have memories

speak to these people , i think you may find it is not the "muslims" they are worried about !

we can all make lists friend , and yes , everything has something in common ,

did you know that all people , white , black , male , female , they all have eyes !!!!!!! what do you think of that then ?


"You still haven't spoken to Copts, Maronite , Armenians, Indoneasian Christians , Zoroastrians, Bhai or Hindus. Funny I see them all in NYC and they say the same thing read the Koran."


there you go again with this idea that you know who i have spoken to , and you "see them ALL and they ALL say"

erm , i think you will find that thinking everyone is speaking to you is a sign of scizophrennia

you said "Colectivization, Central planning
and youth camps are all typical of left wing . However lets add up the dead caused by Nazism and Communism on a balace sheet Chinas 65 million alone outdoes the Nazis"

what on earth are you dribbling about ? i dread to think , i think (with my slow brain) that you are saying that communism killed more then fascism .. ?? i dont doubt it , again my friend your on your own with that one , has NOTHING to do with my posts though ,but feel free

"Fact the Eastern (Islamic) slave trade was responsible for moredeath and lasted longer then the Western Slave trade. Nor have we got into the Europeans abducted by the merry men of Jihad."

yes i was aware of both slave trades , infact my whole response was what you might call saracasm , now do tell me numbers fluffy one

how many people did the muslims enslave ?

how many people did the west enslave ?

i would love to know and your oh so smart

you said " Yet all we hear from you is raionalizations. Beheadings and smacking planes into office buildings are lifestyle choices."

of course thats what you heard dear , and if you can't find it in any of my thousands of words above then do let me know and i will glady insert "the truth" in there for you

you said "Those kids in Beslan were shot in the back by martians " oh really , so is that who i need to speak to about buying that bridge ?

you said "The buildings were still burning and the stench of death lingered and the left blamed the Joooooos and I was there. Can we say modern Blood Libel ? "

you can if you want or you could look up the story of the USS kootz and how we blaimed Iran instead of the real situation which is that we were supllying Iraq with cords to attack the iranians with when they got confused and killed almost all on board , imagine US personal dying and the government lying to ALL the families about how they died because they would not admit we were helping iraq

propaganda is propaganda , facts are facts , and sadly you dont seem to have many

i am sorry i know i said i wouldnt reply , but you are soooo funny i could not resist , well done on training your mouth though

 
At 8/22/2005 1:04 AM, Anonymous toni said...

fantastic post, civil truth , thankyou for restoring my faith ,

there are a few minor points i may disagree with you there , and i feel that yes , they have to work hard to prove there case , but we also have to work hard to help them were possible

but after the wonder and wit of beaky it is a delight to read your thoughts , and any minor disagrement i may have with your post is to mild to bother with , you seem (in my view) to have cut right through the HUGE post and grab the essense of the positions

infact , reading your post a second time , the number of things i find fault with is dropping by the second

my total agreement

respect to you and your mind , and i genuinly look forawrd to reading any further comment you make

 
At 8/22/2005 3:08 AM, Blogger maccusgermanis said...

Toni,
In your defense of Islam, will you deny that there does seem a preponderance of violence in the Koran? While I do feel that muslims have that same innate empathy for other humans that we all feel. I also feel that Islam is most consistently erosive of this gentler nature found in its adherents.

 
At 8/22/2005 7:03 AM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Hey Toni

Still Ducking and running from the basic question. How do such varried cultures have a negative experience with Islam. Guess it must be the rest of the planet. They have yet to get around to oppressing practiotioners of Shintoism. Maybe that is a growth industry.

The list you have printed is standard Commie front agitprop.
Lets see for example Iraq 1972 had zero to do with the West. The Baath
party is a fusion of Nazi-Socialist
with roots in France. I could go down the list . However you are still carrying a torch for the Sandanistas. The practitioners of ethnocide.

Unlike you I look at the big picture. All the groups mentioned have a right to have their stories
heard. People like you laugh pass off a PC version of Islam and deny
the problem exists.

Lets see you still have not answered the basic question I posed at the initial exchange. Can we say failure still ducking and weaving. Did Ray Walston contact you in a seance and claim Martians had nothing to do with Beslan.

Speaking of agitprop when did the US start manufacturing T 72 tanks , MIG and Mirage Jets. Don't let the facts get in the way of propoganda. By the way what was the nick name of the reactor the Israelis took out OChirac. I guess he must have become American.

From the top lets try again. How do such varried ethnicities all have the same problem with the same religion.

 
At 8/22/2005 11:58 AM, Anonymous toni said...

maccus

you said
"
In your defense of Islam, will you deny that there does seem a preponderance of violence in the Koran? While I do feel that muslims have that same innate empathy for other humans that we all feel. I also feel that Islam is most consistently erosive of this gentler nature found in its adherents."

fair question , hmmm . well it could "seem" to be a a preponderance of violence in the quran ,

i am sure i would disagree with many here on to what degree and how it compares to other such religous texts , but on the basic point of....

do "I" think that violence is a factor in the quran then the simple answer is yes ,

but it is a simple answer

the longer answer is how should you read and translate such a huge book and what cultures and types of people does the book try to address

firstly , i have a real problem with armchair analysis ,

i "feel" that not a sinlge person who has commented on this thread (including myself) is a muslim

i am not a christain either , and trust me , if i wanted to know what 'GOD' meant to say in the bible , i would not form a discussion with a bunch of none christians and come to any kind of fair conclusions ,

it is not if you dont mind me saying what we would call very scientific

how something appears to a lamen is not therefore how something is

very few (i am not saying all) people here have any qualification to study the quran ,

none seem to be muslim (surely the first criteria),

many seem to be attached to a different faith of their own (surely does not help them reach non biased conclusions)

the muslim faith (in general) is an open faith ( i am sure thats starts 50 % of you off)

in most countries i have been in over the years , the mosques have been more then happy to talk to non muslims about anything you wish as long as you show respect (ie take your shoes off etc)

the one argument i had hoped to find was that someone , anyone , had actually gone to 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 different mosques and sat and spoke to the people within

that they themselves had approached local muslim leaders and said "look , 'I' am concerned , it seems to me that what 'I' read and what 'I' see and i feel that islam is a religion of , (insert your own words , hate violence , terrorism , evil etc)

and actually reached out to try to understand their faith ,

yes i know one person above said he invited some muslims to his show , very commendable i am sure , but that is not my point ,

if you are taking a stance against a whole faith then inviting them to you is not the respectfull and scientific thing to do , going to them is

what i so often hear is comparable to listining to a load of people who support some different sport team and all share a dislike for some other team ,

so they hunt and search and research all they can to find anyhing and everything that prooves people who support the other team as wrong ,

what they do not do , is reach out (as good christians , jews etc should do) to these people

i again am not quoting any individual person and if you think this does not apply to you then it probably doesnt , but it 'seems' to me that the ideas, thoughts and minds of some of these people are not exactly in tune with what i would see as being a good christian or a good jew etc

and we sit here preaching of our wonderfull tolerance and our happy democracy whilst dropping bombs that kill children (accident or not)to fight a war that was not needed , bringing terror to a country like iraq in a form that just was not there before (yes i know they had torture)

they didnt have the death and destruction they do now , and nobody here 'seems' to have a conflict with their 'faith'

we have people justifing our actions by making suptle connections to Hitler , when iraq , a country incapable of working effectifly outside its borders since 1991 , and a dictator who' only ambition was to stay in power (not to destroy the world)

they dont compare

anyone who has studied propaganda will know that to effectively get your people to support you . you have to demonize the 'enemy' and there are many factors at work here that have motive in demonizing islam ,

in short if a child dying who is muslim doesnt hit you as hard as a white new-yorker dying then to some degree you are already viewing a person as a lesser human being by faith alone ,

governments can not fight wars without the support of the people and for the people to accept the wanten horror that real war is , this is what they want

so all i say is yes , it can 'seem' a certain way but please , go and get the FACTS from those that actually know , and that means MUSLIMS , and that means them answering YOU , not picking any quote from any web site and saying "muslims say this" or any quote from a holy book they you already accept that you dont accept and saying look " the quran says this"

it does not come accross as convincing , it does 'seem' prejiduce and it is compiled without a single muslim scholar being consulted on a single verse of the quran

of course , the hardest thing for a human being to do is to look inside themself , and wonder if they have reached conclusions without a fair assesment or that they may have been slightly manipulated in there search for answers and trust me ,

i expect nobody here would be brave enough to do that and as usual , i expect people to just simply tell me that i am wrong

but i leave you with a quote , that i am sure many of you have seen before ,

"Well of course the people dont want war...But after all it is the leaders of the country that determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy , or facist dictatorship, or a parliment or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.



--Hermon Goering--Nazi leader, at the Neremberg trial after World War II

of course , who would ever admit that they may have been influenced , and that they actually had not bothered to seek out the knowledge DIRECTLY from islamic people ,

well i would like to think i am wrong , but i doubt i am

 
At 8/22/2005 2:48 PM, Blogger jcrue said...

I thought I head black helicopters flying around....

 
At 8/22/2005 3:02 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
I have visited a mosque--once, well before 9/11. I also had a Muslim neighbor with whom my husband and I were quite close.

I want to share with you what I observed and learned, but I have to go to back to work (I'm on a late lunch break right now and just had to check what's been going on here). I will be working late today August 22) and early tomorrow (August 23), but I will return to make my comment. I've left a reminder, to myself, in my inbox. I hope that I can access by inbox; I'm having a software problem which is driving me nuts.

Later.

 
At 8/22/2005 4:06 PM, Anonymous toni said...

thankyou AOW i look forward to reading your comments , whenever you get time of course

as we both agree , i doubt anyone will change any opinions by this but may i add that this dialogue has been an enjoyable experience (in the main)

it would probably be apt to have your comments sum up the post

for all those that disagree with me (erm all but one i think hehehe) may i suggest to you all that when you have time , pop into a blog with views you are not to positive about and talk to the people .

i may not have changed my opinion or any of yours, but i have learnt an awful lot about your views and that can only be a good thing

i certainly won't be commenting on every post but i will be coming back and putting a different view from time to time (aow permiting)

and i also want to thank all of you that have enough intellect and respect to make your points without resorting to insults

thanks

 
At 8/22/2005 6:24 PM, Blogger beakerkin said...

Toni

You still have not answered the basic question. 1300 years of historical oppresion of a wide variety of people leads me to the conclusion there is a problem.

Notice I do not care about the theology. My concern is with the ad nausem litany of historical abuses of a wide range of people.

You can not answer the simplest questions. Thus you resort to racist a term you can check that initiated my negative responses.

The facts you use are at best slogans. When did the USA make T 72 tanks and Mirage and MIG jets.
Then you go into half baked theories about Nicaragua. Ever hear of the Cold War. Thus you proved to have zero grasp of history and basicaly resort to Chomsky styled bloviations and moral equivalency.

Try again

 
At 8/22/2005 7:11 PM, Anonymous toni said...

Beaky .. sorry i cant resist , you just do something iside of me that lowers the tone . ok lets go

i made a choice not to reply to you ,

for you supply no facts , you ignore everything that i have written , you obviously havent read the posts , you assume what i think with increasing failure
you presume that you have some devine right to asnwers when you have answered aprox 4 of the aprox 360 seperate points i have made ,

there are many people who have a talent to cut through a post and get to the point , you are not one of those people

as i said , you have your set routine you go through and if you find the debate deviating from your standpoint your cry 'foul'

so lets play the game fair shall we , before you muttered along i made hundreds of points , that you have amazingly not mentioned in your replies


go back through , read what i said , answer each point i made , and maybe then i will see that my view of your brain power is wrong and you really are worthy of a response

till that , practise what you preach

 
At 8/22/2005 7:28 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Beakerkin,
Toni doesn't reply to your point/question, but instead, as you say, calls you a name that hearkens traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes.

Note that the other person Toni doesn't reply to is me. For I asked him specifically to address Muslim anti-Semitism. The thing is, there is no answer. And Toni knows it.

Well, no answer that woulnd't completely unmask Toni for what he is, maybe.

Here, Toni for the third time (and don't tell me you won't answer because you don't have time. The truth is, you spent a horrendous amount of time answering those who cursed you and called you names, which I didn't do.):


I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?

Are you having trouble seeing things you don't want to see?

Islamofascism reigns supreme in several Muslim countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan. It has made major inroads in countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Niger, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, etc. It is not uncommon to have heads of depts. at Al-Azhar University accuse "Jews" of masterminding 9/11. It is not uncommon for state-controlled media in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt to broadcast these kinds of conspiracy theories, along with calls for "death to the Jews" and also Blood Libels against Jews.

Are you familiar with this?

Neither America nor Israel do anything in league with that kind of hatred. Our societies are most definately morally superior to those societies.

Therefore, I want us to win the War. I do not want our world to be like theirs. I want their world to be more like ours. I hope they can establish democracy and a human rights based constitution, and retain their culture. I hope that they can purge the Islamofascists from their socities.

Are you aware that a poll was done recently which showed that fully 99% of Lebanese people don't like Jews?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/100-of-lebanese-say-they-have-very.html

Or, that 24% of British Muslims "feel sympathy" for the motives of the terrorists?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/muslims-can-expect-increasing-distrust_25.html

That Mein Kampf is a bestseller in Turkey?: http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/07/two-top-turkish-bestsellers-mein-kampf.html

The problem of Islamofascism is not a small problem. It is very widespread, unfortunately.

 
At 8/22/2005 7:30 PM, Anonymous toni said...

ps let me give yo a little example of how it goes


further up i made a point that bechtel made a dual use chemical factory in 1988

esther doubted this and said i was wrong , i replied and gave esther some more information of why i claim my view to be correct , and of course esther has every right to reply to my reply with why she thinks it is wrong

it is simple stuff , it is called dialogue , but for some reason , you want to jump above dialogue and get straight to beaky world were you 'feel' your safe

please , you really are not that important to me , you may be to others here , you have already proved your mind capacity by your comments such as

"does your wife muzzle you" along with plenty of others

whatever your views of me , i am nearly 60 years young and to me you come across as a child in this world .

it is amazing how many countries you can visit , how many books you can read , how many wonderful people you can learn from in 60 years , and i have had a great time doing it ,

i am sure you have faith in your school of thought , but there is no harm in aproaching maybe a few hundred more before you allow your ego to tell you that you have the answers , only the very young or the very dumb would do that

 
At 8/22/2005 7:32 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

By the way, I have noticed that ever since 9/11, whenever I talk to someone who is a "peace and justice" person, someone who is anti-War, someone who hates Bush, all I have to do is challenge them a bit, and the anti-Semitism will come pouring out.

Let me hear you address my comment, Toni.

I don't know how you can justify a civilization which has bred almost absolute anti-Semitism within its culture. My friend, that is a sign of serious cultural illness.

And just so you'll know, Toni; No, I am not a Jew.

 
At 8/22/2005 7:42 PM, Anonymous toni said...

"that hearkens traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes."

what !!!!!!

i call him beaky as a shorterned form of his name .. hahaha


you said "Note that the other person Toni doesn't reply to is me. For I asked him specifically to address Muslim anti-Semitism. The thing is, there is no answer. And Toni knows it"


please repeat in detail your question and i will be happy to reply if i missed it , there is no reason for me not to respond to your question , infact though i did not agree with your views , i felt they were well formed , so please ask again


ah i see you said "I do not condemn Muslims, or the Muslim faith. I condemn Islamofascism. I did say Muslims are good people. Why did you say I didn't?

this is such a shame , as i said i respect your views , but i do not respect your eye site , i stated clearly that that did not apply to everyone , i also apoligised to ducan who noticed the same thing , you only have to reply to me , i am having multiple conversations
and if your paranioa makes you feel that way i am sorry

if you dont think all muslims are this way then i commend you , you dont , others do , and again sadly like Beaky <--- offensive ? not to my jewish wifes mind but fair enough

you seem to want me to answer each and every one of your points whilst ingoring the majority of my points

if you want a one on one debate then ask for it ?

otherwise accept that one person agaisnt this whole site is not going to mirror the views of every post

this really is getting petty

please grow up children

 
At 8/22/2005 8:01 PM, Anonymous toni said...

well if beaky is insulting it is news to my jewish wife .. but for the sake of clarity though i value that gentlemans views i would not wish any remark to be taking in offense , a few scales up the ladder of morality then the gentleman himself

as for your question

Let me hear you address my comment, Toni.

ok .. i am white , i have seen what the white man has done , i have seen from the year dot , ALMOST every bad thing that has happened , was commited by a WHITE GUY , , hitler was white , the misionaries that encouraged slavery were white , the person who designed the atomic bomb ,, was white , my boss is white , the person with two cars , air con , and a holiday home , is white , stalin was white , without doubt the guy that shot kennady was white , the guy that killed jesus christ was white , we had two world wars , due to white guys
we had disgusting regimes such as south africa due to white guys , the next guy that drops a nuke on anyone , trust me , will also be a white guy

funny , all white , funny all male , i would go on but trust me i am getting bored

anyone can come up with a valid load of bullcrap

you know i have been shot three times in my life ,, funny not once by a muslim

that is your post reply , so using this pseudo logic , the words apply to you and you alone and if anyone else doesnt accept it then by all means tough

it is very very easy to come up with what you do . it is very easy to ask the guy with a hundred questions something else

try answering some , i made a huge post on why not being a muslim scholar and not visiting the mosques at lest 4 or 5 times to talk to the faith leaders and making your assumptions about a faith that you dont accept , instead of gettting your FACTS from those that do accept it , DIRECTLY and you have not bothered to answer a single point from it , respect work boths ways brother

 
At 8/22/2005 8:22 PM, Blogger maccusgermanis said...

Toni,
Are not religions by their very nature for laymen to consider? Isn't your appeal for me to visit a mosque linked with this reality? And so as a layman muslim sees it, the koran is, but I lack somehow the basic language and reasoning skills to see, for myself, what the koran is.

Or is your argument purely elistist? Do neither I nor a practicing muslim have the "qualification" to understand written word.

Your claim that I have no qualification to study the koran does combine with your expectation, that I have never and will never think critically nor introspectively, to give the the distinct impression that you have already come to unfair conclusions in mine and others regards.

I also take note that your insistence to allow the adherents of Islam to be the the sole critic and analysis of Islam, does not extend to either Christianity nor Judaism, as you state,

"i again am not quoting any individual person and if you think this does not apply to you then it probably doesnt , but it 'seems' to me that the ideas, thoughts and minds of some of these people are not exactly in tune with what i would see as being a good christian or a good jew etc."


And your problem with armchair analysis seems easily enough solved when you feel the need to comment on our current military engagement.

"and we sit here preaching of our wonderfull tolerance and our happy democracy whilst dropping bombs that kill children (accident or not)to fight a war that was not needed , bringing terror to a country like iraq in a form that just was not there before (yes i know they had torture)

In these things you should feel free to criticize. It is in that very same arrogance (believing that you and even I can read and understand written word) that I denounce Islam.

Please realize that this is no denouncement of any part of humanity. While I feel that Islam is a dangerous ideology, I do not feel hatred for muslims.

In particular this site seems encouraging.
http://www.secularislam.org/

That being said, I do appreciate your attempt to purge from these discussions poorly reasoned arguments, and encourage you to allow your expectations for people to be risen. Actual expectation of communication may lend to your writings a somewhat less condescending and more persuasive tone. But I fear your enjoyable wit may me dulled by following such advice. The challenge to reach out to muslims is a noble one.
Thank you

 
At 8/22/2005 10:44 PM, Blogger Pastorius said...

Toni,
Was that whole thing about being white your reply to my comment?

I don't understand. I provided you with evidence that the current day Muslim world has a viral illness; anti-Semitism. I provided evidence that this illness has penetrated a HUGE portion of the Islamic world. I do not think that Muslims are in any way different types of human beings than other humans. I believe that, for whatever reason, their culture has become very, very ill. Just as German culture became very, very ill for a period of time.

Look at history. It happens.

Southern American culture was very, very ill for a long time.

Japanes culture became very ill for a period of time in the 30;s and 40's.

The culture of Enron was very ill.

The culture of Cambodia was very ill for a period of time.

This happens. When it happens, we need to acknowledge it, and do away with the illness.

I think, perhaps, you might be a Pacifist. If so, then you would discount the idea that war is a way to rid the world of evil, but I would have to ask how we would have rid the world of Japan, Germany, or American enslavement of blacks in any other way.

I have not been disrespectful to you. I implied that "maybe" you are anti-Semitic because "Beaky" does sound anti-Semitic. Do you know the history of anti-Semitism?

Additionally, you have ignored my points. You can think that's petty, but I think there are two major symptoms of the illness of much of the Islamic world:

1) anti-Semitism

2) the enslavement of women in many Islamic countries.

Really, what is your reply to that?

And yes, I will debate you one on one.

 
At 8/22/2005 11:48 PM, Anonymous toni said...

wow maccus , i thank you for that very well considered reply .

you said "Are not religions by their very nature for laymen to consider?"

of course but surely you accept that it is the expert to know any the laymen to just consider , nobody has the right to deny anyone analysis , but to really understand the texts and the faith , you have to go among those that believe it so , that is why certain monks etc will remove themselves from society to live a life of solitude , to gain a better understanding , i do not feel that nobody has the right , i do believe that (as of yet) nobody has claimed to have knowledge of islamic faith that would compare to a true islamic scholar and as such should be treated for what it is , and that is the opinion of laymen (in general)

you said "Isn't your appeal for me to visit a mosque linked with this reality?"

only in the reality of those that believe that islam in the heart is "fill in blank as points above"
and they believe that what they know is "the truth" and that they "really" understand the subject , to be fair i can't remember your exact view , so that comment may not have been intended for yourself , but plenty here have implied that islam is the BIG BIG problem and some seem almost determined in there critism of the faith and it is those that i urge to seek

you said " And so as a layman muslim sees it, the koran is, but I lack somehow the basic language and reasoning skills to see, for myself, what the koran is.
"

ah , a misunderstanding , i never claimed that you lacked any basic knowledge or reasoning skills , i am sure that most people here (but my answer is to you) have the ability to be anything they want , nuclear scientists or muslims scholars or whatever , my point is that many people here have not yet applied the knowledge they have gained in a real muslim enviroment , using these 'quotes' and 'bits of history' in a real conversation with someone who REALLY is a muslim scholar and has dedicated there life to studying the faith , that is what i would call balanced and scientific , please do not assume that i am insulting your intelligence , i am not , i am mearly pointing out that you are not a muslim scholar , it is no different to me asking you to fix my plumbing , you may well have an opinion on what to do , but if you are not qualified then your views would not carry the same weight

you said "Or is your argument purely elistist? Do neither I nor a practicing muslim have the "qualification" to understand written word. "


i think i answered this point above but i will clarify ..

again not at all , we can all read and nobody is telling you that only gifted elitests can aquire anything from it

let me explain what i mean with an example

philosophy , now now a person (lets call him bert) can go to the book store and read plato and gain a good old read and it may well plant seeds of concepts that he takes on board , this is good of course , but is it really fair to say that berts views are as accurate and correct as someone who has spent 8 years of there life in the worlds universities studying plato ?

of course bert should have his say , but if bert thinks that by sitting in his armchair reading and talking with likeminded friends online that he "really" understands the subject then bert is wrong , and if bert feels so strongly about it then bert should go forth and seek the universities , or in our case the muslims scholars

you said "And your problem with armchair analysis seems easily enough solved when you feel the need to comment on our current military engagement. "

to a degree i think your right , however , i have been there a few times during the conflict etc and i do have a degree in military science from regents london , so i guess i am better qualified then some here , but i am sure there are some that are better qualified then me ,

another however is the fact that we are all infact on the side of the coalition , which means we in a democracy are talking about our actions , some what different to talking about muslims when not one of us is a muslim

you said "
Your claim that I have no qualification to study the koran does combine with your expectation, that I have never and will never think critically nor introspectively, to give the the distinct impression that you have already come to unfair conclusions in mine and others regards."

i am sorry you personally feel that , i am sure that you apreciate that i have been reponding to many people , and i accept without doubt that every single word i write will not be a fair assesment of one person or another , i have not judged you all as a whole , i have found many comments to be very interesting , and i certainly do not claim to have any greater intelligence then any individual here

of course i am human ,and although 98% of all the replies to me contained much to debate , one or two were not of such high quality ,

i think for example of my dear friend who has to state his view of my mental capacity after each sentence and the wonder of my wife and her conection to muzzles :o), sadly (and it is me that is at fault here) you have to fight the urge to paint people with one brush (as i think some people do with muslims) and i myself have to fight to realise that some quality debate is taking place


you said "I also take note that your insistence to allow the adherents of Islam to be the the sole critic and analysis of Islam, does not extend to either Christianity nor Judaism, as you state"

firstly i did not say that the 'sole' critic of islam should be islam , but if they are encouraged they will be the BEST critics , with respect to this point in general i feel that many of your points are linked to a certain understanding of my post that isnt actually what i said but taking what i said onto further conclusions that cant really be atrributed to me


as for christianity etc , i did clearly state in that something like " if i wanted to ask about the word of GOD then i would not start by asking a bunch of non cristians "

but please remember my first point , i am not saying nobody can , i am saying this is not profesional anaylis , of course it is read worthy but we should accept it for what it is and not claim it is some greater "truth"


the next few points you make "seem" to have been replied to already in this reply , but if you feel i have not answered one , it is only through error so please remind me

you said " Please realize that this is no denouncement of any part of humanity. While I feel that Islam is a dangerous ideology, I do not feel hatred for muslims"

i accept that , again it is my own fault i spose , everyone here has similar views but with a lot of striking differences between you all it is VERY dificult if not impossible to make a reply that will include all views ,

i dont , but assume for a second i accept your view that islam is a dangerous idieology then what is the correct form of action to take ?

do we reach out to them and help them progress, or do we shun them and force them towards the extremists , ending with what would be comparable to genocide

the reason i dont agree is simple but confrontational , i 'personaly' feel that ALL religion is/has been a dangerous thing , AOW herself noted early on that religion has created a lot of major conflicts and problems

but that is a personal view , meaning "I" would not join any religion , but i have no issue with anyone that does , if i was to stand up and shout . "hey , all relgious people are dangerous" then i would be as guilty as a accuse some of , i wont do that , i am sure for some people it has saved there life

thankyou for the link , i will of course check it out

you said "
That being said, I do appreciate your attempt to purge from these discussions poorly reasoned arguments"

i do try :o)


you said "and encourage you to allow your expectations for people to be risen."

i see what you see , however , please try also to consider the environment i am in , sometimes my amusment or dismay at once persons reply can spill over into another , again , that is my error , please understand that my expectations of the replies as a whole have been well rewarded , again , it is me that has come here , it would be foolish of me to expect some kind of huge impact , that is somewhat different from in any way looking down on anyone etc , which could also be a possible understanding of your remark , if you understand its the former not the later we are off to a good start


you said "Actual expectation of communication may lend to your writings a somewhat less condescending and more persuasive tone. But I fear your enjoyable wit may me dulled by following such advice."

thankyou , alas my style is what it is , and i hope that i have only been condescending to those that have treated me with little respect , if such a style has spilled over to other replies then i of course apoligise to whoever it would be , again as i am sure you understand , sitting here i see a different web site to you , on my screen everyone has a critical view of my words , in yours it is not the same ..

if there is any point in your reply i missed then i look forward to your reply , if not than as i have with others

i thank you , for taking the time to read what i have to say and responding with an articulate response ,

so thank you

 
At 8/23/2005 12:11 AM, Anonymous toni said...

pastorius ,

the replies were probably mixed , please respect that i like many others can not continue to keep posting here for ever ..


please note , as i have said to you before , i think that many of your points are worthy of debate ,
and to be fair , i have tried very hard to respond to as many points as possible from as many people as possible ,

obviously this is not my blog , and i am starting to feel a little guilty for hogging all this space , i am happy to address your points in one of two ways

either (a) i will set up an email acount some time tomorrow and post it here for anyone who wishes to continue the debate with me

or (b) i will continue to debate this issue with you all here , but please (you guys know better then me) this is AOW's site and i am sure she has no desire for a side show

for some background , i have not been in the US for any of this post and over here it is nearly 6 am ,

let me just look at your final point where you say "Additionally, you have ignored my points. You can think that's petty, but I think there are two major symptoms of the illness of much of the Islamic world:

1) anti-Semitism

2) the enslavement of women in many Islamic countries."

i dont say that islam is without fault , in my previous post (way up) i say "hey if i thought islam was perfect dont you think i would join"

i dont , a have defended here my view that israel has a right to exist and that israel has a right to defend herself ,

i do not support everything islam represents and i again agree with you totaly with the treatment of women ,

my point , that i have been attempting to get across (far from perfect in manner) is that the direction of passive critism of islam is not the way forward , that there is much we can do to bridge the gap

as someone said earlier and i agreed with . islam has to make a huge effort right now to defeat extremists , but we to have to make an effort for them to actually have good guys to turn to not just people who will turn there back , it is a two way street and as for what i "assume" you believe islam needs to do , i doubt we would dis agree that much , it is in what WE do that i question

i genuinly apologise to you and anyone else who i have not given a complete answer to , please do not think this is because i am avoiding your question ,

if this side show is still giving more people entertainment then headaches then please post your question (and stated examples) clearly again for me ( is one of me / at least 40 of you ) and i will do my best to reply

as i say , i will post an email here tommorrow for you or anyone else that wishes to converse one on one , but somehow this debate has to be rapped up i am sure you agree on that ..

 
At 8/23/2005 12:29 AM, Blogger delftsman said...

"...increasing childhood cancer by 1200% in iraq by using depleted uranium with a hlaf live of 40,000 years..."

Toni, I suggest you read some FACTS before you continue reiterating "scare-tactic" meme's.

Tell you what, if you pay to have it made, I'll wear a belt made out of DU for a year, you name the stakes.

"the good news is the majority muslims and others with brains can see that these terrorists are not muslims"

Well Toni, lets see what
"moderate" Muslims have to say:

“Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”
-Mr. Omar M. Ahmad, executive director of C.A.I.R.

He also has made statements to the effect that "Sharia should replace the Constitution as the supreme law of the land."

CAIR board member Imam Siraj Wahaj calls for "replacing the American government with a caliphate, and warns that America will crumble unless it "accepts the Islamic agenda."

C.A.I.R.co-sponsored a 1998 Brooklyn College rally at which a militant Egyptian Islamist led the attendees in chanting, "No to the Jews, descendents of the apes." Hussam Ayloush, who heads CAIR's Los Angeles office, contemptuously refers to Israelis as "Zionazis."

THAT, from the most notable "moderate" Islamic group in America? Seems that there is a disconnect from reality here.

 
At 8/23/2005 12:45 AM, Anonymous toni said...

deflsman , i have already replied to precvious comments about DU , please read them before asking the same again , i wont wate my time replying to what i have alreayd replied too

as for your lovely quotes , well at least a few of your 'friends up above' have agreed in the complete waste of time of playing the you quote , i quote game ,

you want to just sit here throwing quotes at each other , go look at the notinmyname web site , there you will find 'moderate muslims' protesting with some skill , that these terrorists are a shame to islam . but i have no reason to bother to convince you , you already have the answers , , well you have an answer to one of my points , but you didnt actually look to see if anyone else made the same point and if i replied to that ..

so with respect , i am becoming more selective with my replies (i have a life) but it seems many people here are still able to offer me questions that have some merit to them , and for now i will stick to them

of course , if you have questions i have not already answered and you are wiling to examine a little more of my words then you so far have then feel free to fire away

 
At 8/23/2005 4:40 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
What I want to say will take more than one comment section. When I'm done, I'll so indicate.

Thanks for your patience.

Somewhere back in all these comments, you asked if any of the readers here had ever visited a mosque. I’ve visited only one mosque, back in 1998 or 1999. What sent me there was not curiosity about Islam, but rather a quest for more information about the literature of the Middle East. I wanted to add a unit to the textbook I was using for World Literature. When I saw a newspaper ad telling that the very large mosque near me was holding an open house, off I went.

As my visit to the mosque was some 6 or 7 years ago, I don’t remember all the details. I recall, however, a tour of the building (which also housed classrooms for day school), lots of excellent food on the buffet, and presentations by various Muslim speakers. Oh, yes, and I was told that no literature other than the Koran was truly Arabic literature. I asked about The 1001 Arabian Nights, and the hosts smiled and nodded—no answer. I guess I showed my ignorance on that one because, a few months later, my Muslim neighbor laughed when I mentioned Nights, “Those are our fairy tales. Not literature.” As it turned out, I ended up using Nights as a token because I really wanted my class to have some exposure to Middle Eastern materials, other than the ancient work Gilgamesh. I was sorry later for having chosen Nights because some of the tales were gruesome and denigrating to blacks, women, homosexuals, etc. I also distributed to the class lots of materials freely distributed at the mosque’s open house; those materials came from Riyadh, Saudi. That last is just an interesting factoid.

But I digress. The crystal-clear moment from my afternoon at the mosque was the panel discussion. On the panel sat Muslim scholars, as well as the imam of the mosque. At one point, a guest in the audience asked in the Q&A session, “What is the definition of jihad?” I gasped because I felt that this man was asking a rude and touchy thing. One scholar on the panel—might have been Joe Esposito from Georgetown University—began speaking of “personal jihad.” Shortly, the imam started waving his arms and disagreeing, in very loud volume. More debate from the panel ensued, and eventually the debate went to Arabic. After a few moments of near riot on the panel—I’m not kidding!—the panel’s moderator took the microphone and sent all the open-house guests to the buffet tables. The scholars and imam withdrew, and I think they went into a private room to continue the discussion. For quite a while, I really didn’t think any more about what I had heard in that panel discussion, but it all came flooding back after 9/11.

(to be continued)

 
At 8/23/2005 4:53 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni (continued),
Some time later that same year (some two or three years before 9/11), I asked my Muslim neighbor (We were great friends—had the keys to one another’s house, exchanged baby-sitting and pet-sitting tasks, etc.) for recommendations to add to my literature class. He told me, “There is no accurate translation of the Koran. It must be read in the original Arabic.” As I said earlier, he laughed when I brought up the matter of The 1001 Arabian Nights , but he told me to go ahead and use Nights anyway as "it's better than nothing."

So I said to him, “Okay. Then tell me how a Middle Easterner thinks.”

He looked me straight in the eye and said, “You want to know how a Middle Easterner thinks? I’ll tell you. It’s me and my brother against my cousin. And when we finish my cousin off, it’s me and my brother against each other. We are Semites—Jew and Arab. We are the most treacherous people you have ever known.”

He then went on to explain why he supported Saddam Hussein, hated Clinton (“a sodomizer who had an affair with a Jewess”), hated Madeleine Allbright (“Your President sends not only a woman, but a Jewess, to negotiate with us”). I was dumbfounded! And I think that I have related my neighbor’s exact words here—what he said to me was so shocking to me at the time. This neighbor had grown up here in the States and had long been married to an American woman. I knew, of course, that he was a citizen of UAE, but I thought of him as an American; and he had told me, when he first moved in several years before, that he wasn’t serious about his faith. But he resumed attending mosque in 1997, when his son was born; prior to the birth of his son, he didn’t seem serious about going to mosque nor did he ever discuss with me Middle Eastern affairs in any but laudatory terms with reference to America.

Did attending mosque change my neighbor? I don’t have the answer, but if the way the imam behaved at the open house is any indication of what goes on inside a mosque (the same mosque which my neighbor attended, BTW), I am suspicious that my neighbor received Wahhabist teachings there. Others from that mosque have recently been arrested (Al-Timimi) or in legal trouble (Ahmed Abu Ali). In fact, the new imam there, who was installed on June 1, 2005, has stated that he will not observe the recent fatwah against terrorism because it’s not “Muslim”; he highly resists input from anyone who is not Muslim.

After my neighbor moved back to UAE, we maintained email contact until July 2001. Despite my having sent emails to him and to his wife, since that date I’ve never received a response. And the emails have not been returned for delivery failure.

Now, maybe my experiences are not as vast as yours, but those are two which I've had. I've had others as well, mostly with adult ESL students, both from Saudi, and with a colleague who emigrated here from Saudi. I won't go into all the details from those three individuals, the first two who were Muslims and the last who had left Islam.

(to be continued)

 
At 8/23/2005 5:01 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni (continued),
One problem in trying to have dialogue with Muslims is the matter of taqiyya. How to discern what is true and what isn’t? And when CAIR, which purports to be an organization of and for moderate Muslims, has what at least appears to be ties to terrorism, and when individuals like the very prominent spokesman Alamoudi, who stood side-by-side with GWB at the post-9/11 service and then Alamoudi turns out to to be not so moderate and end up in prison for his terrorist ties, a problem with credibility arises.

Anyway, I have related a bit about my experiences. Think of us here as "rabid dogs" and "fascists" if you like. It's your right to think so. And I'm not trying to be snippy when I make the statements in this paragraph. I hope you understand that I'm saying these things with respect.

Later.

(The End)

 
At 8/23/2005 5:22 PM, Anonymous toni said...

thankyou for that reply , i dont remember calling everyone rabid dogs and i seem to to remember making clear that i dont not see everyone here as fascists , but i do worry that some are very very close to that view

i will not comment further on your post and will leave it 'as is' to stand testimony to your own view point , clarified on your own site

i feel that i have more then attempted to make my points and like yourself i am sure there are only a few people that have actually had the time(or boredom) to read all that i said ,

I feel that anyone who finds this post now will be able to address most of my views and a good 95% of the replies i made to questions they may have asked , and in a the spirit of free speech i leave it for anyone who finds this and is un-decided to make up there own mind

i really apreciated the dialogue , it was fun . and as promised will put an email here asap to allow anyone who wishes further debate

 
At 8/23/2005 5:37 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Toni,
In an earlier comment, I believe that you said that one’s ideology colors one’s perceptions (or something which I’ve interpreted as the meaning). True. And one’s personal experiences also color one’s perceptions.

In my experience in dealing with people of all sorts, nobody is absolutely objective. The same data often lead to differing interpretations. We’ve seen differing interpretations here on this blog.

Thank you, Toni, for stopping by this blog article. Feel free to leave your email address here, if you like.

Take care.

 
At 8/23/2005 6:02 PM, Anonymous toni said...

ok thankyou

i have set up an email account for anyone that feels the need or desire to debate any of this with me

alas i wont give my real email as of every 1000 people there is always one or two that might abuse it

the name of the account i have set up is a joke so please treat it as so

my email is

watchingthefascists@hotmail.com


i will stop monitoring this article now.

i will probably only check it every few days so please dont expect instant responses but i will reply to anything sensible asked or stated

thankyou everyone , especially AOW of course ..

i wish you all luck

take care

 

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