Tuesday, September 26, 2006

Where's The Apology?

(All emphases by Always On Watch)

From 712 until 1492 (when La Reconquista, the centuries-long process of reclaiming the Iberian Peninsula as Christian territory, was completed), much of Spain was under the boot of the Moors, Muslim tribes from northern Africa. The invasion commenced in 711 and consisted of a combined force of Africans, Berbers, and Arabs landing at Gibraltar and moving northward; these combined forces are commonly referred to as the Moors. By 714, the name of Hispania had been changed to Al-Andalus, a name which reflects that this particular geographical area was a part of the Caliphate.

This period of history was the Age of Feudalism, lacking in central government and effective military defense. Beginning with Agila's surrender of his lands in 712, the fiefdoms of the Iberian Peninsula surrendered one by one until the northward-moving Moorish forces had subdued all of Hispania. The Moors continued their expansion into France until they were defeated by Eudes of Aquitaine (near Toulouse in 721) and Charles Martel (the Battle of Tours in 732). The Frankish military-defeats of the Moors and the natural barrier of the Pyrenees Mountains, the passes of which were fortified under Charlemagne, thus confined the Moors to the Iberian Peninsula, where the Muslim tribes established an Emirate originally subordinate to the Caliph in Damascus. Because of the large distance from the Damascene Caliph, Muslim rule in Spain was more or less an independent and isolated governance, yet in keeping with the oppression of Christians and Jews according to the Code of Umar.

Muslims are presently demanding an apology from the Pope. As Jose Maria Aznar, the former prime minister of Spain, has pointed out, in this article dated September 23, 2006, no Muslim apology is forthcoming with regard to the Muslim rule of Spain:

"Bush and his war on terror, said the West is under attack from radical Islam and must defend itself. 'It is them or it is us,' Aznar said. 'There is no middle ground.'

"Muslims should apologize for occupying Spain for 800 years and a U.N.-backed program to encourage dialogue between them and West is stupid, former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar has said. Aznar made his comments Friday night in a speech at the Hudson Institute, a thinktank in Washington, D.C., as he discussed Pope Benedict XVI's recent remarks on Islam and violence. Aznar, a firm ally of U.S. President George W. Bush and his war on terror, said the West is under attack from radical Islam and must defend itself. 'It is them or it is us,' Aznar said. 'There is no middle ground.' He did not elaborate. Aznar said he found it surprising that Muslims have demanded an apology from the pope over his Sept. 12 remarks.

"Aznar noted the nearly 800-year Moorish occupation of Spain that began in the year 711 with an invasion from North Africa. He said Muslims had never apologized for this but still demand apologies whenever they feel offended by remarks by non-Muslims. 'It's absurd,' Aznar said.

"He also criticized an initiative launched last year by his Socialist successor, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, to encourage dialogue between the West and Muslim countries."
In at least one of his videotaped speeches, Osama bin Laden referred to "the Andalusan atrocity," meaning the success of La Reconquista in re-establishing Christian rule on the Iberian Peninsula. Why the mention of events which occurred centuries ago? For one thing, Arabic does not have a past tense in the sense we understand it: what's over is not over and done with. For another, according to Islamic beliefs, once a territory has been claimed for Allah, that territory must forever remain Muslim. Should Muslim rule be overthrown, as was the case in Spain, it is the duty of Muslims to reclaim that territory for Allah.

Now, toward the beginning of Ramadan, the Pope has met with Muslims to discuss their offended sensitivities and has asked for reciprocity with regard to religious tolerance? What was the outcome of a previous similar meeting many centuries ago? Agila, the first Iberian Visigoth to surrender to the Moors, found dialogue ineffective, even after his uncle's previous alliance with the Moors:
"Agila's uncle, Oppas, bishop of Toledo, solicited the aid of the Moslems of Morocco against Roderic and it was this which led to the conquest of the peninsula in 711. When Roderic died in battle against the Moors, Agila was probably crowned in Toledo.

"In 712, he [Agila] travelled to Toledo to meet the Moslem leader, Tariq ibn Ziyad. He received no mercy for his conquered subjects and lands."
Granted, the Pope's meeting with Muslim leaders has not come about because of a military defeat. But there are other kinds of defeat as well, including ideological defeat. Ideological defeats are often a matter of subtle perceptions. From such perceptions, beliefs and ideological movements grow stronger or weaker. Western civilization is, once again, at the crossroads of two opposing ideologies.

[Hat-tip to Gravelrash of Democracy Frontline for alerting me to the above article about Jose Maria Aznar]

98 Comments:

At 9/26/2006 5:48 PM, Blogger Brooke said...

It would appear that al-Andalus is on its way back, through dhimmitude.

The Muslim apologies to the Spanish peoples for centuries of oppression is likely in the same place where the apologies for 9-11 are... *snicker*

Every time one of those self-righteous Muslims start up about the Crusades, they should have their nose rubbed in this, the Moorish Crusade against the Spaniards.

 
At 9/26/2006 6:41 PM, Blogger The Merry Widow said...

The Inquisition was partly a response to mohammadin overrule! Trying to weed out any sympathizers or collaborators. The Inquisition was rightly decried for the violent and brutal tortures, where were those tortures learned? From the mohammadin overlords?
Good rundown of history, AoW!

tmw

 
At 9/26/2006 8:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Every time one of those self-righteous Muslims start up about the Crusades, they should have their nose rubbed in this, the Moorish Crusade against the Spaniards."

We should stop not merely at rubbing their noses in the Moorish conquests but their conquest of north Africa, their conquest of the entire Arabian peninsula, north all the way through Turkey (who would also claim parts of Europe in the name of the Ottoman caliphate), their conquest of Persia, all the way through to their conquest of India. We're not talking about one war, but hundreds of years of conquest. Then we could add in the slave raids, both in Africa and Europe. But you know, if we actually were to point out the obvious, it might make them mad and they might have tantrums. Awww....

 
At 9/26/2006 9:15 PM, Blogger Old Soldier said...

I do believe OBL and company has started the 21st Century Crusades; only it's not just the Christians that they are facing but the entire western world. Too bad we can't get the Democrats to join the fight.

 
At 9/26/2006 10:01 PM, Blogger Brooke said...

Or the right! Let's face it: If we were serious about this threat, we'd have CAIR deported/jailed, jailhouse conversions quashed, Mosques under strict survellience, ect., ect....

 
At 9/26/2006 11:37 PM, Blogger WomanHonorThyself said...

Western civilization is, once again, at the crossroads of two opposing ideologies...........and yet here we are bowing our heads and letting ourselves be destroyed from within and from without..............

 
At 9/26/2006 11:45 PM, Blogger Mike's America said...

What's up with Spain these days? It's only been two or three years since the election where Aznar was defeated. I wonder if he is planning a comeback.

He realizes that the Spain is in the top tier of targets for the Islamic Fascists who demand that any "occupied" land be returned to them. And by "occupied" they mean anywhere where Muslims live.

 
At 9/26/2006 11:50 PM, Blogger OSONSFORLIBERTY said...

I THINK THE FOLLOWERS OF "MO THE PEDOPHILE" SHOULD BE THE ONES APOLOGIZING. FOR EXISTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS RELIGION IS UTTERLY CONTEMPTUOS, SUBVERSIVE, AND BARBARIC!!!!!!!!!!! IF WE WERE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS WAR , WE,D DEVISE A PLAN OF TOTAL DEFEAT OF THESE SAVAGES!!!!!!!!!!!! INSTEAD WE HAVE THE POPE APOLOGIZING , DECENT HONOURBLE TROOPS BEING JAILED FOR LETTING A GERMAN SHEPARD BARK AT THESE ANNIMALS, AND THE COMPLETE CAPITULATION OF MOST OF EUROPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! B.T.W. I,D LIKE TO WISH ALL MUZZIE READERS A CRAPPY "RAMA DAMN"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
At 9/27/2006 7:11 AM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

TMW,
Some of the torture-methods used during the Spanish Inquistion were the same methods used by the Moors when they subjugated Spain.

Mike,
As you said, Spain is in the top tier of targets for the Islamic Fascists who demand that any "occupied" land be returned to them.

Not only "occupied land," but also a country which was formerly under Muslim rule (712-1492).

An interesting irony: Muslims are all riled up over the Pope's reading from a centuries-old document, yet ideologically speaking, Islam demands that "lost" Muslim lands must be reclaimed for Allah. In part, that was one reason for the Madrid train-bombings, which were followed by an election which elected an Islamophile to office. Muslims saw that as a victory for Allah and as another motivation for jihadism.

OSFL,
They will never apologize. They are convinced they are doing the will of Allah.

Brooke,
Political correctness won't allow for the steps you mentioned. Therefore, the destruction from within continues.

Every time one of those self-righteous Muslims start up about the Crusades, they should have their nose rubbed in this, the Moorish Crusade against the Spaniards.

We hear a lot about how tolerant the Moorish rule of Spain was. Well, a few caliphs there WERE tolerant. But they didn't last long because their tolerant ways were not Islamic--a situation similar to what happened to Anwar Sadat. The tolerant caliphs in Spain were ousted or assassinated.

The medieval literature of Spain relates some of what the Christians and Jewish population of Spain had to endure from 712-1492.

Old Soldier,
I do believe OBL and company has started the 21st Century Crusades; only it's not just the Christians that they are facing but the entire western world.

Yes, Islam (or certain followers of Islam) have declared a holy war. The West doesn't fight religious wars, but Muslims do.

Anonymous,
Have you read Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad? Have any of our leaders?

 
At 9/27/2006 8:22 AM, Blogger defiant_infidel said...

Endless capitulation from the 'civilized side' of the equation ...all a one way street as demonstrated repeatedly by history. An excellent historical review AOW. Thank you.

 
At 9/27/2006 8:33 AM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Defiant Infidel,
I love history and am particularly interested in the history and current events of Spain because I was a Spanish major. I wish that I'd saved all my medieval-lit books. I'm wondering if they've now been altered to be politically correct; the copies I had came from before the days of revisionist history, and, of course, I read them in the original Spanish.

 
At 9/27/2006 9:39 AM, Blogger Farmer John said...

OT - Did you ever read any "Washington Irving" on the subject? ie- Life & Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828), Conquest of Granada (1829), Voyages and Companions of Columbus (1831), Tales of the Alhambra (1832), or Legends of the Conquest of Spain (1835)? Curious.

 
At 9/27/2006 9:46 AM, Blogger American Crusader said...

Unfortunately brooke is probably correct in saying that Spain and the rest of Europe is on its way to being Eurabia-not by military defeat but by dhimmitude. The West is losing because it has lost confidence in itself.
I would love to be proved wrong.
What ever happened to the Byzantine Empire?
Oh that's right..the Turks finally captured Constantinople and slaughtered the city's inhabitants with their SWORDS.
Obviously there is a lot more to this. The Roman Catholic Church didn't help their eastern counterparts and in fact contributed heavily to their defeat a.k.a. Crusades.

 
At 9/27/2006 9:54 AM, Blogger Pim's Ghost said...

They should have to apologize just to be able to live in Spain today and denounce all those cries for al-Andalus. The nerve! But then that's what always gets me with Muslims today, their utter nerve!

 
At 9/27/2006 10:13 AM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Jose Maria Aznar? That ghost of Franco that the Spanish kicked out of office? How did he become an authoratative voice?

 
At 9/27/2006 11:11 AM, Blogger Farmer John said...

So ducky, why is Franco's national syndicalism so much worse than Marxist anarcho-syndicalism? Just curious. Is it the two-team yoke you object to? Or the bundle of arrows? Isn't one labour movement as good as another?

 
At 9/27/2006 11:17 AM, Blogger Farmer John said...

...Oh, I get it. Workers of the World, Unite! The vision of the falngists just wasn't big enough for Stalin & Marx. A communist Spain was too narrow a vision.

 
At 9/27/2006 11:56 AM, Blogger Farmer John said...

Didn't Machiavelli teach you that the people and the "king" are natural allies against the aristocracy (read: capitalist pigs)?

Machiavelli "Discourses on Titus Livy"...

Whence it arises that those Tyrants who have the general public as friends and the Nobles as enemies, are more secure, because their violence is sustained by a greater force than that of those men who have the People as an enemy and the Nobility as a friend. For with that favor (of the people) the internal forces are enough to sustain him, as they were enough for Nabis, Tyrant of Sparta, when Greece and the Roman People assaulted him; who, making sure of a few Nobles, and having the People as a friend, he defended himself with them; which he could not do if he had them as an enemy. But the internal forces of the other rank not being enough because there are few friends within it, he must seek (aid) outside. And this may be of three kinds; the one, foreigners as satellites who would guard your person; another, to arm the countryside (and) have them perform the duty that the Plebs should do; the third, to ally oneself with powerful neighbors who would defend you. Whoever has these means and observes them well, although he has the People as his enemy, is able in some way to save himself.

 
At 9/27/2006 11:59 AM, Blogger Farmer John said...

Stalin's gaffe...

He didn't have any nobles to blame for the people's suffering! He had to keep making enemy "groups" the bad guys...

 
At 9/27/2006 12:01 PM, Blogger Farmer John said...

groups of the People!

Jew as scapegoat sounds like a way of doing the above. I guess Hitler made enemies with too many people (commies) after embracing the nobles like Krupp et al.

 
At 9/27/2006 12:02 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

The religion (excuse me, I mean the political ideology) of Islam seems to be not very much like other organized religions; therefore, could this be one of the reasons that we'll never see an apology - because if someone from Islam speaks out and declares an apology on behalf of all Muslims - maybe the person issuing this apology will be lambasted with charges of treason and apostacy against Islam?

 
At 9/27/2006 12:02 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

The religion (excuse me, I mean the political ideology) of Islam seems to be not very much like other organized religions; therefore, could this be one of the reasons that we'll never see an apology - because if someone from Islam speaks out and declares an apology on behalf of all Muslims - maybe the person issuing this apology will be lambasted with charges of treason and apostacy against Islam?

 
At 9/27/2006 12:02 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

The religion (excuse me, I mean the political ideology) of Islam seems to be not very much like other organized religions; therefore, could this be one of the reasons that we'll never see an apology - because if someone from Islam speaks out and declares an apology on behalf of all Muslims - maybe the person issuing this apology will be lambasted with charges of treason and apostacy against Islam?

 
At 9/27/2006 12:04 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

The religion (excuse me, I mean the political ideology) of Islam seems to be not very much like other organized religions; therefore, could this be one of the reasons that we'll never see an apology - because if someone from Islam speaks out and declares an apology on behalf of all Muslims - maybe the person issuing this apology will be lambasted with charges of treason and apostacy against Islam?

 
At 9/27/2006 12:25 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

It's apparent to me that since Islam isn't as nearly organized as other religions, maybe this is why we don't see any apologies.

It's either that, or it's because no one in Islam is brave enough to offer one due to fear of being killed.

This is further proof that Islam isn't technically a religion. Rather, it is a political ideology instead.

 
At 9/27/2006 1:37 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Farmer, i wouldn't advocate anarchism, which is primarily what the syndicalists were about. They are much closer to Libertarians (the sandbox of politics) than to Marxists.

Oh, and you might enjoy this month's "Film Comment". Great article by Paul Schrader on the establishing of artistic canons and just what criteria can be agreed upon. He accepts the need for absolute values but has trouble articulating them. Good article.

He also likes The Red Shoes quite a bit which I know you also enjoy and he puts Ozu at the top which I think is appropriate.

 
At 9/27/2006 2:08 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Seville, Cordoba, Granada ... why should the Moors apologize for some of the most advanced urban centers in Europe at the time? Got the xenophobes yapping loudly here, as usual.

 
At 9/27/2006 2:11 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

Truth is not xenophobic....

 
At 9/27/2006 2:11 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Farmer, should the Moors apologize for bringing Averroes to Europe?

Aquinas was quite taken by him and certainly it helped the development of science and reason in Europe.

 
At 9/27/2006 2:53 PM, Blogger Farmer John said...

I'm hardly an impartial arbiter, but I have to admit that I agree with you mr. ducky. No one should have to apologize for kickin' somebody elses butt.

Which brings me to the Schrader article (I only read the intro at the website). He's right, there is no "canon" and there will never be one. But he's wrong in his prediction of the imminent emergent ubermensch. It's a "loss" of memory and mind and regression to "undermensch" that we're experiencing. The Last Man has arrived. You brain is probably the probably the closest thing to a "western" film canon that will ever exist. Without culture/class/education/literacy, the only thing we're left with are our instincts. The meaning and reasons have disappeared. We've all become "authentic" individuals devoid of all reason and reactive only to physical stimulus. Or should I say more directly, we've regressed from human, to animal form.

 
At 9/27/2006 3:30 PM, Blogger benning said...

Excellent post, AOW! I love history, and this came chock-full of tidbits!

Aznar is correct, rapprochment is useless with the Muslims. I hope Benedict knows what he's doing. If he backpeddles he will sell Christianity short, just as generations of Liberal Theologians have.

 
At 9/27/2006 4:14 PM, Blogger Gayle said...

Like Benning, I hope Benedict know what he's doing too.

All of this is very worrisome, and I'm afraid we may be heading towards another Crusade, but that may be what has to happen. Islamofascists will simply not be reasoned with.

 
At 9/27/2006 4:58 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

A little bit about Averroes, from THIS SOURCE:

Averroes tried to reconcile Aristotle's system of thought with Islam. According to him, there is no conflict between religion and philosophy. He held that one can reach the truth through two different ways: philosophy or religion. He believed in the eternity of the universe and the existence of pre-extant forms. In contrast with Islam and in similarity with Buddhism, he believed that the soul was not eternal, and that in fact all beings share one soul....

Hardly orthodox Islam. In fact, very close to apostasy.

At the end of the 12th century, following the Almohads conquest, his political career was ended. Averroes' strictly rationalist views which collided with those of Islamic orthodoxy had caused Yusef al-Mansur to banish him though he had previously appointed Ibn Rushd his personal physician. Averroes was not rehabilitated until shortly before his death. He devoted the rest of his life to his philosophical writings. Many of his works in logic and metaphysics have been permanently lost. Some of his works have only survived in Latin or Hebrew translation, not in the original Arabic.

Interesting, I'd say.

 
At 9/27/2006 5:05 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Well AOW, it's hardly orthodox christianity either. Still a very critical thinker and a product of Islam. That is absolutely undeniable.

Getting to the point at hand. The muslim world should hardly apologize for occupying parts of Spain since it made Spain a world power and a center for the sciences.

Why should they apologize. i realize that your readers are largely ignorant about the details of moorish Spain (you really shouldn't have to look up Averroes) and i hope they can expand their limited horizons.

 
At 9/27/2006 5:21 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

Be careful of making judgmental labelings on AOW's readers, Ducky. I studied this invasion and happen to read AOW's blog regularly. You have a bad habit of coming in here and stirring the shit at times; others in here, I am sure, would vouch for that.

While I cannot speak for the rest of us, I know that ibn-Ziyad (sic) had some Goths cut up into pieces and boiled and then deliberately released some of them as to assure "the word" would get out, so to speak. There were forced conversions into Islam en-masse.

Thanks to the Franks in the north, Islamo-expansionism was curtailed, or else the rest of Europe may have fallen into Islam's forceful ways by stealing land, declaring infidel tax, and the brutal massacre of thousands.

No apologies owed by Islam, eh? I wouldn't expect one, even if this political ideology (it is technically not a religion, IMO) was more organized than it is.

 
At 9/27/2006 5:38 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Duck,
Quick comment here...I didn't HAVE to look up Averroes. You should know my pattern by now, in that I usually use a source to back up my statements.

 
At 9/27/2006 7:07 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

Spot on, AOW. There is nothing worse than commenters that take assumptions on others and then try to accuse them that they are "largely ignorant" at the same time.

I apologize for my term that is synonymous with "fecal" in my earlier post above.

 
At 9/27/2006 9:40 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Averroes wasn't "a product of Islam" but a product of Greek philosophy ... that's why Islam rejected him. Take the book by Majid Fakhry on Averroes. When it comes to those influenced by Averroes, he provides a long list of Jewish and Christian scholars. Muslims rejected him in favor of Al Ghazali's anti-Hellenic mysticism. Islam eventually banished Hellenic philosophy. Averroes is better understood as part of the Western tradition. He who understands and assimilates a great mind rightfully honors and inherits the tradition. Islam dishonored a great man in their midst.

 
At 9/27/2006 10:30 PM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

Unfortunately, Islam struck again and again with intolerance, paling any of their "contributions" by a long shot. Any contributions by that mad ideology was accomplished by the blood sweat and tears of those that were forced to submit to those that followed a liar.

Truth proves once again that it is not xenophobic.

 
At 9/27/2006 10:52 PM, Blogger nanc said...

plucky? full of shiite? who'd have thought?

 
At 9/28/2006 12:30 AM, Blogger Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Screw all that.

Muslims need to apologize for daring to suggest Allah is more holy than the bottom of my shoe.

 
At 9/28/2006 6:41 AM, Blogger The Merry Widow said...

Jason- Isn't that the way of immature, insular and self-righteous people and cultures? They reject, destroy or kill that which is their better, so they can feel superior? Little minds reject the better and stay petty, large minds appreciate and study the great and some are inspired to greatness themselves!
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

 
At 9/28/2006 7:33 AM, Anonymous Seth said...

Now that it's established that the history of Islam's transgressions against mankind is available for all to read, it's time for our politicians, our media and the apologists among us to to go on to the next phase: Learn from it!

 
At 9/28/2006 9:39 AM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Jason, it would be more proper to state that Averroes was a product of moorish Spain. The fact remains that the moors have absolutely nothing to apologize for.

That area of Spain was well advanced in science, philosophy, medicine and jurisprudence. Again, asking the moors to apologize for civilizing Spain is a bit silly.

 
At 9/28/2006 9:49 AM, Blogger American Crusader said...

lmao@Ducky being a Muslim apologist.
Yes it's true for a short time in history, Islam was at the forefront in science but Islam reverted back to its seventh century dogmatic doctrine. Islam did this on its own. It is the goal of Wahibism today.

When was Sharia law ever at the forefront of jurisprudence?

I'm fairly certain Spanish Christians and Jews didn't feel that they were getting a fair shake before getting there heads cut off.

 
At 9/28/2006 1:14 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Couple things A. Crusader

1. You conflate wahabism with islam so you are automatically discarded. Wahabism is a sect and you know it.

2. Why are you saying that moorish Spain was ruled by sharia. When did the moors cut of jewish heads or are you thinking of a Catholic auto-da-fe?

Please come back when you have collected your thoughts and can speak from reason and not emotion.

 
At 9/28/2006 1:34 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Ducky:

Please allow me to recommend an excellent book to you by Dale Carnegie. How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's full of great ideas, and has an excellent chapter on arrogance, if my memory serves me well.

By the way, Always, this is an excellent, and informative essay, as ever. A great read!

 
At 9/28/2006 2:01 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

American Crusader, a description of moorish Spain:

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that could not boast of a single streetlamp, in Cordova there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit. The houses had marble balconies for summer and hot-air ducts under the mosaic floors for the winter. They were adorned with gardens with artificial fountains and orchards. Paper, a material still unknown to the west, was everywhere. There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries.
----------------------------------

Now there is a solid branch of historical study that credits moorish Spain with hastening the Renaissance. You may disagree but I suggest that it's a theory you have to at least give a cursory study before you dismiss that period.

The alternative is to close the mind as "mustang" does on his Social Sense site (I would respond there but he's banned me). He claims that Catholicism was a "considerable power". I don't know where he gets that. The Catholic Church was still trying to wipe out druid and wiccan culture by the sword, something he seems to feel is unique to the muslim war in the middle east (of course there is no jewish conquest by the sword in the Old Testament).

The low level junk circulates on the blogs and pretty soon you have a large group with rigid opinions who have never attempted a bit of scholarship.

If anyone who advocates a fair reading of history is an "sympathizer" then so be it. Rather that than living in ignorance, no?

 
At 9/28/2006 3:24 PM, Blogger Mark said...

It would be great if Europe had more people like Aznar. I admire him for being prepared to stick his head above the parapet.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that could not boast of a single streetlamp, in Cordova there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit. The houses had marble balconies for summer and hot-air ducts under the mosaic floors for the winter. They were adorned with gardens with artificial fountains and orchards. Paper, a material still unknown to the west, was everywhere. There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries.

My goodness, Mr Ducky! What a rosy picture you paint of Spain under Moorish rule! There is no doubt that Islamic architecture can be very stunning. Nobody would dispute that. But what's the price that comes along with it? Submission, suppression and coercion. Give me that "mud hut" and freedom any day!

Even today, many Saudi women live in splendour; but don't ask them what kind of life they have to lead in order to 'enjoy' it.

 
At 9/28/2006 3:31 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

mark, you seem to be a little slow. moorish Spain was one if the most, if not the most advanced areas of Europe.

There was no "freedom" as you define it today. Why do you continually bring up Saudi Arabia and as a conservative what record do you have supporting minority rights in America?

 
At 9/28/2006 3:43 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

I'm hoping that mark posts some interesting material on the advanced state of women's rights in Europe at the time of moorish Spain.

You know, something about their independence and lack of job descrimination.

Come on mark, you can do it. Show everyone that you can do more than just blather about wahabism and have that stand in as an understanding of muslim history.

 
At 9/28/2006 3:59 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Thanks, Merry, that’s an excellent point.

Sorry, Ducky, Averroes wasn’t a product, period. He was an innovator who understood Aristotle better than anyone up to that time. No genius is a product. Of course, as a Marxist steeped in determinism and group-identity, you’d have a hard time with individual genius.

By the way, not only was Averroes persecuted but during his life the Jews in Spain were told to convert to Islam or suffer death. This is why Maimonides left Spain and wound up in Saladin’s court in Egypt. Gee, you forgot those little details about you’re “glorious moors.”

The problem is that Enlightened Monarchs may at best bring temporary support for a few house scholars but it is so precarious. This is true everywhere.

 
At 9/28/2006 4:51 PM, Blogger Mark said...

My God! I must be doing something right here today! I have actually got Mr Ducky to speak to me! Flattered, to be sure! You appear to have bought into the Muslim mythos that women in Islam had it sooo much better than their infidel counterparts. Oh how Muslims like to blather on about this more-then-boring topic! The fact, Mr Ducky, is that however much the Qur'an did for women back then, that was then and this is now.

Looking back to a glorious age of Islam is fine for the historian, but it does little for the poor 'bastardesses' who have to live in current survitude to their male masters, and probably have to undergo female circumcision to stop them having any sexual pleasure. Or the poor 'bastardesses' in countries such as Saudi Arabia who cannot stop even for a cup of coffee in a café because they don't serve females unless accompanied by a male member of family.

Or what about not being able to drive, or not being able to go away without a letter authorizing the trip from their male master?

Do you mean to tell us here today that life in those dark years in Moorish Spain were that much more enlightened for women , even back then? Oh, come on, Mr Ducky! You've been reading too many fairy stories, too many prettied up, over-romaticized stories about how wonderful life was in those 1001 Arabian nights in Cordova!

Show us all some concrete evidence of this wonderful life that women enjoyed. And I'm talking women across the board, not the life of a few upper class ladies of the Islamic outpost.

Do you really think that life back then could have been that much better than they have today? If that is the case,how come the women were so stupid as to allow all those fabulous times to slip through their fingers?

 
At 9/28/2006 4:51 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Sorry jason, anecdotal crap. I know you're upset that Averroes had a command of Aristotle that exposes Ayn as a complete sham but let's have perspective.

Genius doesn't exist in a vacuum. Moorish Spain was condusive to the development of ideas. You know, much as the celebrity culture of the 60's was condusive to the development of Warhol's genius (oh, bring it here to the house, please).

Jews were persecuted in Spain also? Glad that never happened in Europe. No siree, Europeans wouldn't stand for that sort of thing. Come on Jason, is that your best game?

 
At 9/28/2006 5:01 PM, Blogger Mark said...

By the way, Mr Ducky, I don't just "just blather about wahabism". That shows me you've never read anything much I have ever written. In fact, I seldom mention the word wahhabism. I mention it only when it is necessary. I usually write about Islam in its entirety.

 
At 9/28/2006 5:32 PM, Blogger Freedomnow said...

I agree that at the time the Moors had a superior civilization than the Europeans.

However, that doesnt change the fact that they were invaders.

Furthermore, it was a religious war that they brought to Western Europe.

...That is very provocative... They are lucky explosives hadnt been perfected back then or there would have been a plague of Christian suicide bombers.

 
At 9/28/2006 6:15 PM, Blogger benning said...

Spain needs to apologize to the Western World for deserting the fight against their own hereditary enemies. Typical of the Socialists to sit back and feed on the misery they themselves have created and stoked.

Islam will never apologize unless they think they can fool enough people to kill them later. That's how they work.

 
At 9/28/2006 7:26 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

Among the cities of al-Andalus, Cordoba stood out as by far the biggest. Disasters were to befall the city in the 11th century-of which more were later-and it was to be reduced to a shadow of its former self before Moorish rule.
-Richard Fletcher author of The Quest for El Cid

I find it interesting that the golden age of Spain began in 1492 immediately after the conquest of Granada extinguished Moorish rule.

You also stated how Sharia law was at the forefront of jurisprudence. If this is so, then why haven't we based our code of laws on Sharia?

 
At 9/28/2006 7:33 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

As far as Islam owing Spain an apology, that would be similar to the United States owing Mexico and apology for annexing parts of Arizona, New Mexico and California. I'm sure Christian armies aren't going to apologize for slaughtering Jews and Moors after reconquering Spain for not converting to Christianity. But I'm not worried about the 15th century or even the 18th century.
People keep comparing Islamic abuses of today to Christian abuses of the past. I think it can be easily stated that killing someone because of their religion IS supported by the Koran but NOT supported by the Bible. I don't see Christians/Jews/Buddhist/whatever cutting the heads off their enemies because of religion. To do so would be an affront to that religion.
Can Muslims say the same?

 
At 9/28/2006 7:38 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Crusader,
As far as Islam owing Spain an apology, that would be similar to the United States owing Mexico and apology for annexing parts of Arizona, New Mexico and California.

My choice of title reflects what I perceive to be an inconsistency. The century in which the document read by the Pope was written is long past. And if I understand correctly, the topic of that particular presentation by the Pope tangentially related to Islam.

 
At 9/28/2006 7:38 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

And finally a quote from ducky

"I know you're upset that Averroes had a command of Aristotle that exposes Ayn as a complete sham"

Please explain your fixation with Ayn Rand? Did your teacher get exasperated with you trying to explain Fountainhead?
Hardly a threat goes by without at least one mentioning.

 
At 9/28/2006 7:39 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

ummm..thread

 
At 9/28/2006 7:42 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

AOW...I understood exactly why you chose this subject and I agree with what you are saying.
Muslims react so violently with the slightest provocation, demanding apologies or they will continue with their temper tantrums and yet never are expected to apologize for their extreme provocations.

 
At 9/28/2006 8:49 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

That fact that Jews were forced to convert or fled 12th century Spain is anecdotal? I’d guess you’d say the same thing for the Holocaust. Quite a callous way to dismiss ethnic cleansing! Of course, let’s remember who set the example for ethnic cleansing of Jews. Ducky, you play right into my hands.

I was quite clear in my post that Enlightened Monarchs establish no lasting broad-based liberality anywhere on earth (re-read my post) and not just Arab monarchs. I’m extremely critical of all societies before the British Enlightenment. European Monarchs don’t get a pass from me (unless they’re mere figureheads.)

 
At 9/28/2006 9:52 PM, Blogger kuhnkat said...

Little Che Sucky the LYING MORON

purposely forgets all the SLAVES and PEASANTS that were required to create the prosperity for those using the baths and mosques.

He also purposely ignores the violent methods used to keep those workers in line!! He also ignores the torture and violence used to obtain the land and supremacy!!!

The Muslims and Islam itself contributed close to NOTHING to the culture and increase in knowledge!!!

Little Che Sucky is a BIGOT and suppressed SLAVEOWNER!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Eat your slaves you MORON EASTERN ELITE!!!!!

 
At 9/29/2006 7:29 AM, Blogger Mark said...

Mr Ducky:

mark, you seem to be a little slow. moorish Spain was one if the most, if not the most advanced areas of Europe.

There was no "freedom" as you define it today. Why do you continually bring up Saudi Arabia and as a conservative what record do you have supporting minority rights in America?

Slow, perhaps; but I hope not stupid! I’ll let others decide that, though.

You say that Moorish Spain was one the most advanced areas of Europe [at that time]. I cannot dispute that; nor should I wish to. The grandeur of the period is, I believe, unquestionable and well-documented. But as you rightly say, there was “no freedom” as one would define freedom today. But then, one wouldn’t expect there to have been, would one? Muslims can’t get their heads round the concept of ‘freedom’ even today, 600+ years later!

You ask me why I keep bringing up Saudi Arabia. Well there are a few good reasons for that. This list should in no way be construed as exhaustive: Saudi Arabia is a country I have lived and worked for quite some time; Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam; Saudi Arabia is, in many ways, the rôle model of Islam; Saudi Arabia is the source of many of our problems in the West today, especially since it exports its particularly strict and pernicious brand of Islam (I won’t mention its name), and especially since, as the Saudis are awash with petro-dollars, they buy into Western businesses, build mosques and madrassahs by the galore, and spend tens of millions of dollars prosletyzing and spreading their particularly narrow-minded version of their faith. (I shan’t go on.)

You ask me what record I have as a conservative of supporting minority rights in America. Well the short answer to that is none. The short reason for that is that I am not an American. You might not have known it, but I am a Brit; so it would be rather unusual for me to work for minority rights in your country, wouldn’t it?

As an addendum to the above, I should wish to clarify something: Conservative, I am, Mr Ducky; but probably not in the quintessential sense that you might visualize a conservative to be. I take each issue on its merits. On some issues, one might even consider me to be rather more liberal than you might imagine. For example, I even support ‘gay rights’, though not the militant variety one often sees in the States. I certainly do not think that the word ‘marriage’ should be used for a gay partnership; since it demeans the very name ‘marriage’. But I am in favour of gays being treated with respect, and being afforded the opportunity to live unharmed, without discrimination, and with dignity. Why? Simply because they are human beings (who I believe can do little about their sexual orientation).

So this might give you some idea that I am not the bigot that you, Mr Ducky, might think I am.

Further, I should like to add that I have absolutely nothing against Muslims per se. Indeed, when I worked with them, I found them to be warm, kind, caring, helpful, and, in many ways, understanding. That, actually, is more than could have been said about many of the Brits I worked with in the Gulf at that time!

But that I enjoyed the company of many Muslims and Arabs does not mean that I want their belief system imported here to the West. Although I have stated some very positive things about Muslims above, I must also add that they are rather pushy when it comes to their religion. Almost to a man, they believe that they have a monopoly on the truth. Now that, Mr Ducky, I do not like.

It is my firm belief that Islam and Western democracy, based as it is on Judeo-Christian values, are totally at variance, and quite immiscible. I believe that Islam is the greatest threat to Western civilization since the rise of Nazi Germany and the rise of communism in Soviet Russia and China. Arguably, it is an even greater threat, since the West seems not to be able to understand this geopolitical system, clothed as it is in a deity. It appears to remain to them an enigma. Without being able to understand it, how can we cope with it, let alone thwart its advance?

I'm hoping that mark posts some interesting material on the advanced state of women's rights in Europe at the time of moorish Spain.

You know, something about their independence and lack of job descrimination.

Come on mark, you can do it. Show everyone that you can do more than just blather about wahabism and have that stand in as an understanding of muslim history.

Women’s rights in Europe at the time of the Moorish occupation of Spain were, I admit, wanting. The Muslims certainly had the edge at that time. But, as I said yesterday, that was then, and this is now. We have overtaken them. Period. They have a lot of catching up to do. It helps them not one jot to live in the past, resting on a past, perhaps, glorious, golden era.

You might be interested to learn that the book I am currently reading is on this very topic. You might be interested in the book yourself, Mr Ducky. It is available from Amazon in Canada, from their French section. It is written by a one Pierre Guichard, and it is called Al-Andalus 711-1492: Une histoire de l'Andalousie arabe

Due to commitments, my time for reading is limited at the moment, so I have not finished it yet. But from what I have read so far, I have found nothing about these wonderful, advanced rights that Muslimahs enjoyed in Al-Andalus. However, rest assured that should I come to some very interesting little tid-bit about the lot of the Muslimah there, I shall let you know. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.

By the way, you might be interested to read some of my recent essays. I think that you will find that I do not “blather on” about Wahhabism in them, contrary to what you believe. Here are a few:

This is no way to win a war!

Pope Benedict XVI: Saviour of Western civilization?

There are plenty more that might be of interest you, Mr Ducky.

Open up your mind, Mr Ducky. Who knows, instead of being sparring partners, we might even become friends!

Mark Alexander

 
At 9/29/2006 8:03 AM, Blogger kev said...

daffy, as usual, and true to your brand of politics, your hypocracy is not only showing, it's glaring. Using your logic, we should not feel at all bad about our "conquest" of the original inhabitants of this country. Where once the country was primitive, we turned it into an oasis of science, industry, and certainly, a world leader. Not that I'm surprised at your defense of islam, even the violent, murdering side of it. Now that I think about it, your logic could be used to justify conquests everywhere. Maybe President Bush should have used your logic regarding the Iraq invasion, rather than such petty ideas such as freeing an enslaved people from a brutal, murdering dictator, or bringing democray to the middle east, or wanting to keep our country safe from terrorists and terrorism. We simply wanted more paved roads, more science, more industry, and we were trying to make Iraq a world power.

 
At 9/29/2006 8:50 AM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

I couldn't agree more, Kev. There's nothing worse than a pompous ass that posts snide comments on other people's blogs and their readers, and they don't even have their own blog.

 
At 9/29/2006 10:24 AM, Blogger harmony said...

well presented blog

I'll keep visiting!

H

 
At 9/29/2006 10:50 AM, Blogger Brooke said...

I think what we must ask is, "What has Islam done for me lately?" (Other than terror.) Even if you take on Muslim, Ibn Rushd, (Who was far from the norm at the time.) he lived during the twelfth century... Got anything a little more current? HA!

 
At 9/29/2006 11:48 AM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Nice discussion Mark … it is enjoyable to read … at least those of us who enjoy learning.

As Brooke points out, what have they done since? They seemed to learn how to fly planes but in their hands …

I’m always amused when commentators think it is a compliment to another culture to say that it was better than Europe during Europe’s most backwards period: the Dark Ages. If you have to hold the bar so low, is it really a compliment? I doubt Ducky would find it flattering if I said: you’re obnoxious at times but you’re not as bad as Charles Mason! The simple point is why would anyone use Europe’s Dark ages as a comparison? Why lower the bar so low? Who wants to go back to the 11th century anyway? I’m not even too fond of 20th century Europe.

 
At 9/29/2006 12:52 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Great point, Jason! Yes, I wonder about Europe at times, too.

 
At 9/29/2006 1:02 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Let's get back to your views on genius for a second, Jason. Now as read your position you believe that advancement comes from the great beings all retiring to their labs in Galt's Gulch and coming up with what's best for us through their critical insight.

Jonas Salk is one that your crew likes to use. It ignores the many researchers who were assisting Salk and looking at a variety of possibilities. It ignores the use of public research facilities. It ignores the collective will of parents at the time to agree to innoculations and the governments effective delivery. In fact it was nothing like your singular "genius" retiring to his lab like some latter day St. Jerome.

You are quite naive on that point and I will remind you that this thread started because AOW got a bit damp about the idea of Spain getting an apology for the moors providing one of the more enlightened periods of European history. Whatever came after is irrelevant and you know it.

Your task remains. Demonstrate that the culture of moorish Spain was a drag on western advancement. Let me know when you can stay on question and have something to say.

 
At 9/29/2006 1:04 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Oh and dear, dear little kev yammering about Bush "bringing democracy to the middle east".

Stunning kev. When did that happen?

Keep eating whatever Chucklenuts puts on the plate, kev. You'll grow into a nice strong Walmart greeter, like Beamish.

 
At 9/29/2006 1:24 PM, Blogger Freedomnow said...

Ducky,

The reason you scorn the idea of Democracy in the Middle East is because you are hostile to Democracy.

I have rarely ever heard you say anything to defend Democracy but have heard you defend every modern day enemy of Democracy.

Whether you like it or not Democracy is now a reality in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those countries have never had a real representative democracy, but they do now.

Do you prefer Saddam Hussein or the Taliban?

 
At 9/29/2006 2:17 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Freedomnow, here's what I prefer ....

I walk to the corner store for bread and milk and a car bomb goes off, while my neighbor gets shrapnel from an IED that hits a passing convoy. There are headless bodies floating in the Mystic river. The local militias are splintering because they don't consider al-Sadr sufficiently miltant and the government is trucking the countries wealth out the back door.

Now go research the fallacy of the excluded middle or simply buy a clue.

I suspect you are one of the group that believes becasue the power of the U.S. military has been brought to bear that "freedom and democracy" are just around the corner. They never fail (except in Korea, Nam, Gulf I ...).

Yeah, 20 or 30 headless bodies a day, worse GOVERNMENT torture than under Hussein and you consider this just a blip. You jingoists are beyond the reach of reason. Little sofa Sun Tzu's ruled by your emotions and unable to embrace reason.

 
At 9/29/2006 2:32 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Mr Ducky, I see that you haven't answered me.

... rest assured that should I come to some very interesting little tid-bit about the lot of the Muslimah there, I shall let you know. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.

The BIG question, Mr Ducky, is this: Are YOU?

 
At 9/29/2006 2:37 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Dear Duck, Genius is at one end of a continuum. All productive work on any scale deserves respect but there are some individuals who have been pivotal in the course of history. Some people (who I’ll call “quick”) merely beat the next guy in line. But there are others, like Averroes, that were pivotal because of the vast number of people over many centuries who had the books of Aristotle but never saw what he saw. I’d put Aquinas in that category. The Greek Orthodox regions never lost Aristotle (in the original, by the way) but they had no Aquinas to champion him and further the work of Averroes.

Now, I agree that there are antecedent conditions for these individuals to thrive. Prior to modern times this required a patron who shielded the elite esoteric scholar from populist lynch mobs. An enlightened Caliph (for Averroes) or Pope (for Aquinas) or Earl (for Locke) are examples. Hypatia wasn’t so lucky. But with the Enlightenment, liberal societies allowed free inquiry on a massive scale. Now even the average person can learn Newton’s physics or read Aristotle. And innovation can proceed by a division of labor advanced by many average people and occasionally a rare genius. Free markets and free minds enable the spontaneous (as Hayek would call it) order that allows the best ideas to win out in the long run. Aren't capitalist societies great?

 
At 9/29/2006 2:50 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

Well Jason, a market economy is desirable but it is not a solution to many serious problems.

The laissez-faire proponents skirt the issue of the preponderance of wealth migrating upward to a small percentage while the overwhelming numbers are simply left to poverty.

At that point the poor are called lazy or any number of things and this is where Randoids and other laissez-faire proponents deserve to be called short sighted and closed minded.

Cuba is a good example. In the early days there were many, many Cubans who wanted that revolution to succeed. It didn't and precisely because non market economes tend to gravitate towards authoritarianism because of the lack of a middle class.
Now we went nuts when we realized Castro was a commie and started all kinds of programs to help development in Central America and the Carribean. It all failed dismally and that is the key.
You state that a hardcore communist economy cannot succeed (I agree) and point to failures thinking that establishes your equally radical idea as a success. In fact the libertarian laissez-faire crowd has never accomplished anything of much value either and the problems continue.

 
At 9/29/2006 2:54 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Fair enough, we agree on the need for individual liberty even if you’d establish limits that I’d find odious.

 
At 9/29/2006 3:39 PM, Blogger Mark said...

You STILL haven't answered me, Mr Ducky. Am I to assume that you can't?

 
At 9/29/2006 4:01 PM, Blogger Mr. Ducky said...

What's the question, mark?

 
At 9/29/2006 4:21 PM, Blogger American Crusader said...

Ducky..I would like to see you back up the comment that Islamic law(sharia)was at the forefront of jurisprudence.

Your comment was "That area of Spain was well advanced in science, philosophy, medicine and jurisprudence."

We can ignore the facts that Islam reverted back upon itself and willingly rejected science and medicine...

 
At 9/29/2006 5:39 PM, Blogger Freedomnow said...

Ducky that is Bullshit.

Torture is not worse under the new government. A handful of reporters are trying to hype the transference of guilt from the insurgents to the government. The majority of killings and torture is done by the insurgents and wannabe insurgents (Sadr's militia).

That is deliberate misinformation.

As far as your 20 or 30 a day celebration, the body count is nowhere near Saddam's free for all and the remnants of his regime are mostly responsible for the deaths in this insurgency anyways. THEREFORE, IT LEGITIMIZES THEIR REMOVAL FROM POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE AND JUSTIFIES PREVENTING THEM FROM SEIZING POWER AGAIN.

The Sunnis, the Shiite, Kurds are all fairly represented in this government. Even anti-American and Communist groups are fairly represented. If the US really was oppressing the Iraqis this wouldnt be so.

It just kills you that Iraq and Afghanistan have real Democracy and you will do anything you can to discredit it. Putting you in an alliance of convenience with the insurgency. It’s as if Iraq was a paradise with little kids flying kites before the “democratically elected” government of Saddam Hussein was removed (one man, all votes).

You said, “here's what I prefer ....I walk to the corner store for bread and milk and a car bomb goes off, while my neighbor gets shrapnel from an IED that hits a passing convoy.”

I know Ducky. You would also prefer to allow Saddam Hussein to continue to dig mass graves of Shiites, Kurds and even his own people. Whole communities were orderly removed and efficiently transported to well dug grave pits. The media has barely given as much coverage to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, as it has given to any individual bombing of a bakery, restaurant or wedding in Iraq. That’s because you are all useful tools to the terrorists.

I’ll support Democracy instead, thank you.

 
At 9/29/2006 7:14 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Crusader said the following:

Islam reverted back upon itself and willingly rejected science and medicine.

True. Many of those Muslims who tried to join the Modern Age were declared apostates.

Today, countless muslimas die for lack of proper medical treatment, all because their "devout" husbands won't let their wives be examined by a qualified doctor who is male. The number of Muslim doctors who are females is limited by the general subjugation of muslimas, many of whom receive little education--let alone, HIGHER education.

 
At 9/29/2006 8:54 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Over at CUANAS, I found a link to a few stats, from this source:

Last October the United Nations' Development Program and the Kuwait-based Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development released a study showing how dire the situation is. Among the findings:

No Arab country spends more than 0.2 percent of its gross national product on scientific research, and most of that money goes toward salaries. By contrast, the United States spends more than 10 times that amount.

Fewer than one in 20 Arab university students pursue scientific disciplines.

There are only 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab world. The global average is 78 per 1,000.

Only 370 industrial patents were issued to people in Arab countries between 1980 and 2000. In South Korea during that same period, 16,000 industrial patents were issued.

No more than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic over the entire past millennium, equivalent to the number translated into Spanish each year.


The entire article is worth reading, IMO. It begins as follows:

The Arab World's Scientific Desert

Once a leader in research, the region now struggles to keep up


Eleven centuries ago an Islamic renaissance occurred in Baghdad, attracting the best scholars throughout the Muslim world. For the next five hundred years, Arabic was the lingua franca of science. Cutting-edge research was conducted in cities such as Cairo, Damascus, and Tunis. In the ninth century, algebra (al-jabr) was invented by a Muslim mathematician in Baghdad under the auspices of an imperial Arab court dedicated to scientific enrichment and discovery. Ibn Sina's monumental Canon of Medicine was translated into Latin in the 12th century and dominated the teaching of the subject in Europe for four centuries.

Today, no one looks to the Arab world for breakthroughs in scientific research, and for good reason. According to a number of highly self-critical reports that have come out in the past few years, the 21 countries that make up the region are struggling to teach even basic science at the university level. For poor countries, such as Yemen and Sudan, the problem is a lack of money and resources. For wealthier ones, such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, complacency and a relatively new and underdeveloped university system have hampered progress.

Many Arab universities are also burdened with a bureaucracy that stifles innovation and bases promotion on cronyism, not research, scientists there say. The lack of significant private industry throughout the region also means that universities are essentially dependent on governments to pay for research and provide jobs for their graduates....


Read it all HERE.

 
At 9/30/2006 12:00 AM, Blogger Mark said...

Mr Ducky:

I wrote a long response to you yesterday morning (my time). I have also asked you a specific question since. Now you ask me what my question is! Read over my last few comments and you'll see what my questions are. You don't have to talk across me in the discussion as though I weren't around! I have noticed that you often do that. If you don't like what's been written, or if you can't answer what has been alleged or asked, you simply ignore it and talk across the person. This is rude and unacceptable!

Yesterday, you challenged me to answer you. I rose to the challenge, and came back with a very full response (which, perhaps, you should re-read). Now it's time for you to do the same, i.e. re-pay the compliment.

 
At 9/30/2006 2:06 AM, Blogger Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

Ducky doesn't know what the invisible economy is.

 
At 9/30/2006 10:58 AM, Blogger Steve Harkonnen said...

Is Ayn Rand dead yet?

 
At 9/30/2006 12:48 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Teacher in France Forced to Hide. Excerpt:

A French philosophy teacher has gone into hiding under police protection after receiving death threats for an article he wrote attacking Islam and the Prophet Mohammed.

The teacher, Robert Redeker, was writing in response to the angry reactions around the Islamic world to a lecture by Pope Benedict XVI two weeks ago, in which he drew a link between Islam and violence.

His article, describing the Koran as “a book of incredible violence”, sparked death threats against Mr Redeker, and fuelled fears of rising tensions between supporters of free speech in secular western societies and their resident Muslim populations.


A translation of the teacher's letter is HERE. Excerpt:

The reactions caused by Benedict XVI’s analysis of Islam and violence highlight the underhanded maneuver carried out by Islam to stifle what the West values more than anything, and which does not exist in any Moslem country: freedom of thought and expression.

Islam tries to impose its rules on Europe : opening of public swimming pools at certain hours reserved exclusively for women, ban on caricaturing this religion, demands for special diets for Muslim children in school cafeterias, struggle to impose the veil at school, accusations of Islamophobia against free spirits....

Whereas Judaism and Christianity are religions whose rites spurn violence, by delegitimizing it, Islam is a religion that exalts violence and hatred in its everyday rites and sacred book.


If an individual criticizes Christianity, does that person have to flee for his life? Not very often in the 21st Century, in a Western culture.

Defenders of individual liberties are omnipresent in our Western society. Flag burners light their matches without impunity here in the States. Just try burning an Islamic nation's flag in an Islamic country.

My analogies are not perfect, but I think the meaning I'm getting at is clear enough.

 
At 9/30/2006 3:22 PM, Blogger kuhnkat said...

Little Che Sucky the Lying MORON blathered:

"I walk to the corner store for bread and milk and a car bomb goes off, while my neighbor gets shrapnel from an IED that hits a passing convoy. There are headless bodies floating in the Mystic river. The local militias are splintering because they don't consider al-Sadr sufficiently miltant"

Please continue and tell us what group that YOU SUPPORT is doing all the killing?? At one point you were all about al-Qaeda and how they were kicking US hiney. Of course, you haven't been saying much about them lately.

Now you are off on the Mlitias killing all kinds of people and AGAIN it is the US's fault.

So, let's see, it was the US fault when Sadam was murdering his own people and taking their money and spending it on armaments and palaces and letting the babies and children and old folk die.

It was the US's fault when al-Qaeda was planting IED's and killing civilians and kidnapping them and torturing and executing them.

Now it is the US's fault when the Militias, backed by Syria and Iran, plant IED's, kidnap, torture, behead, excute...

Sorry, Little Che Sucky, you make no more sense than the idiot Global Warming types that tell us that the Sun, which provides 99.99% of the energy to the environment could not POSSIBLY have anything to do with the temperature rise. Who can't even explain where all the energy comes from to raise the Pacific Ocean's temperature to cause El Nino, but, who are SO SURE that the CO2 (which has a saturation point that stops increasing greenhouse effect) that they would destroy the global economy to combat it!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You MORON!!!!!!!

 
At 9/30/2006 8:43 PM, Blogger Brooke said...

Two very good articles, AOW.

 
At 10/01/2006 6:42 AM, Blogger Mark said...

Still no word from Mr Ducky, I see. He must be unable to answer me. Am I to say to myself: Game, set, and match?

 
At 10/02/2006 12:33 AM, Blogger kuhnkat said...

mark,

Little Che Sucky the Lying Ducky just throws his propaganda out and, if there is a strong response, does what LEFTARDS do best, RUN!!!!!

Only if he is feeling testy, or is answered with a weak response will he tarry!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 
At 10/02/2006 11:21 AM, Blogger Freedomnow said...

Give him a break. Its tough supporting a losing insurgency.

No wonder he is demoralized...

 
At 10/02/2006 2:42 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Kuhnkat & Freedom Now:

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. Points well taken.

 
At 10/03/2006 10:27 PM, Blogger Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit said...

The invisible economy:

Millions of people cutting their own lawns, painting their own houses, repairing their own cars, etc. - instead of paying someone else to do it.

The economic value of this innumerable fortune of wealth exceeds what can be counted.

 
At 10/04/2006 6:18 PM, Blogger Always On Watch said...

Mr. Beamish,
Millions of people cutting their own lawns, painting their own houses, repairing their own cars, etc. - instead of paying someone else to do it.

Oh, to be rich enough to outsource all those chores!

 

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